Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[guitarzan]

Ok. Then ToneX just sucks for unknown reasons then. It cannot handle upper harmonics and it’s gone.

The fact that they can’t make their own app function as an editor was reason enough to shitcan the pedal, but I held out hope for the app. Analog all the way.

[zerocrossing]

Ok. Then ToneX just sucks for unknown reasons then. It cannot handle upper harmonics and it’s gone.

The fact that they can’t make their own app function as an editor was reason enough to shitcan the pedal, but I held out hope for the app. Analog all the way.

Then you will know the value of shredding at the highest notes with only fret buzz between you and god.

Can you not transfer a Tonex patch from the computer to the pedal? I don’t own the hardware, so I know nothing of that sort of thing. If that’s true, it’s pretty stupid, though IK can definitely be stupid. Their plugin editor for the Uno Synth Pro X has never worked correctly in Bitwig, and even if it did, is oddly missing controls like FM amount. I spent years going back and forth with IK support… only to be recently told that all development with the editor had been halted at version 1.0.1.

[guitarzan]

The “buzz” is on every fret though, always at the same relationship to the fundamental volume wise. It cannot be escaped, nothing touches it. I thought it was good news that it was aliasing since that has a known fix. ‘Just plain sucks’ does not. Those high harmonics are present on every note, not just upper frets.

I carry a phone with me at all times. I haven’t carried a laptop with me for 15 years. IK blows in general anyway.

[zerocrossing]

Yes, done. Which filter model is the one that works?

All of the filters are good. It’s most of the wah models that will have a bit of zipper noise when in front of a mid to high gain amp.

[zerocrossing]

The “buzz” is on every fret though, always at the same relationship to the fundamental volume wise. It cannot be escaped, nothing touches it. I thought it was good news that it was aliasing since that has a known fix. ‘Just plain sucks’ does not. Those high harmonics are present on every note, not just upper frets.

I carry a phone with me at all times. I haven’t carried a laptop with me for 15 years. IK blows in general anyway.

Except they’re just not. Unless you’re going in from something that has issues to begin with. Are you coming from a digital device into the Tonex? Did you not read my post? Clean triangles from analog sources (triangle’s the closest thing to a guitar string) get you clean results, even on high gain captures, until you get up to the last few notes on the high e. Even if you have an analog synth to do the test, you can do it with any guitar. Listen to the EVH Tonex library demo that I posted. If you don’t hear it there, you won’t hear it.

[guitarzan]

I hear what I hear — the source is my guitars (Apogee Jam+ or JamX interface usually but others as well) and the artifact is there on every note on every guitar when there is even the slightest overdrive on any ToneX profile. It is digital in origin. And yes, with amp set for a lot of chime every note produces tons of upper harmonics — that’s what chime is.

If it is not aliasing then it is some kind of digital distortion. Just because you don’t hear it doesn’t mean that nobody does.

ToneX was about the best sound and feel wise, and up to pushed clean it’s near perfect, but I cannot play it with any overdrive.

It is not noticeable to me on recorded material, but live it unmistakable, it’s just so annoyingly unmusical and does not respond dynamically like a mechanical artifact would.

I still say it is aliasing, because I always thought aliasing sounded like bridge noise. It’s just a bit more hidden and refined than it was 15 years ago, but still just as annoying, and once you hear it you cannot unhear it.

[zerocrossing]

It is not noticeable to me on recorded material, but live it unmistakable,

This statement is nonsense. If it’s there, it is always there. What is your signal chain? Guitar - Tonex - Interface?

[guitarzan]

It is not noticeable to me on recorded material, but live it unmistakable,

This statement is nonsense. If it’s there, it is always there. What is your signal chain? Guitar - Tonex - Interface?

It means it is minor, a small sound that is easily ignored when you are listening to a recording but annoying as hell when you are keyed in and playing to the amp. It is like a “ck” little chink, like a minor bridge rattle except nothing changes it. You can’t change where you’re picking or how you’re picking to mitigate it. If you pick softer it is not as loud, but still the same relative to the fundamental note, so very static in that way (non-dynamic, ruins the feel, reminds me that it’s not an amp). I was a beta tester for a lot of the first gen sims — it sounds like aliasing to me, but only in the upper harmonics, not across the board like 20 years ago.

I first reported this exact type of sound like 18 years ago on the ReValver II beta Bassman model. I said it sounded like excessive bridge noise then, but was later informed it was aliasing when finally fixed, after months of trying to get others to hear it.

[guitarzan]

Here’s what Jay Mitchell says about the sweep used in the TGP ToneX aliasing thread (again, he is an audio engineer in real life, like, a real one):

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t-41454783

…The sweep covers the full range of guitar fundamentals and adds large amounts of harmonic content up to fifth order…

… the sweep is not intended to generate aliasing. The harmonics added by nonlinear processes create aliasing. If you play the sweep through a linear process, you won't generate any aliasing. If the foldback stays well above 10-12k - meaning that Nyquist is only exceeded by a small amount - you almost certainly won't hear it…

Jay Mitchell did not do the tests on that thread, but it used his sweep which was developed in 2008 specifically to test for aliasing in amp sims (probably AxeFX I imagine).

[zerocrossing]

It is not noticeable to me on recorded material, but live it unmistakable,

This statement is nonsense. If it’s there, it is always there. What is your signal chain? Guitar - Tonex - Interface?

It means it is minor, a small sound that is easily ignored when you are listening to a recording but annoying as hell when you are keyed in and playing to the amp. It is like a “ck” little chink, like a minor bridge rattle except nothing changes it. You can’t change where you’re picking or how you’re picking to mitigate it. If you pick softer it is not as loud, but still the same relative to the fundamental note, so very static in that way (non-dynamic, ruins the feel, reminds me that it’s not an amp). I was a beta tester for a lot of the first gen sims — it sounds like aliasing to me, but only in the upper harmonics, not across the board like 20 years ago.

I first reported this exact type of sound like 18 years ago on the ReValver II beta Bassman model. I said it sounded like excessive bridge noise then, but was later informed it was aliasing when finally fixed, after months of trying to get others to hear it.

That doesn't answer my signal chain question.

I'm going through a bunch of stuff, but it's all bypassed and then into the UAD Apollo. Set up at 48 khz, 24 bit. I just loaded up the IK preset Messy Beard. Very high gain, lots of top end. I don't hear anything playing all the way up the neck and doing bends. I'm feeding a triangle wave into it (a damn dirty one, at that) and I hear aliasing starting at E5, but pretty faint. The digital source, Massive X, shows up a few notes earlier and a little louder.

[guitarzan]

Guitar, Apogee Jam (+ or X), ToneX on iOS or guitar to ToneX One pedal (which sits unused, but I did test it).

I have been using digital amp sims for over 25 years now, so I have the basics down. I still think they mostly suck, but with profiling it’s getting much better. I’d probably be very happy with an aliasing free ToneX, for example.

…I'm feeding a triangle wave into it (a damn dirty one, at that) and I hear aliasing starting at E5, but pretty faint. The digital source, Massive X, shows up a few notes earlier and a little louder.

What you are missing in your sweep is the “large amounts of harmonic content up to fifth order”, this is what generates the chime in a tweed Deluxe or an AC30 when the power amp and OT start to work. Chime isn’t the same as a fundamental through a lot of gain and treble cranked. It requires very little preamp gain. These high frequency harmonics are all over the guitar, in fact the open strings probably generate much more chime through a pushed clean tweed or ac than fretted notes.

[zerocrossing]

Here’s what Jay Mitchell says about the sweep used in the TGP ToneX aliasing thread (again, he is an audio engineer in real life, like, a real one):

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t-41454783

…The sweep covers the full range of guitar fundamentals and adds large amounts of harmonic content up to fifth order…

… the sweep is not intended to generate aliasing. The harmonics added by nonlinear processes create aliasing. If you play the sweep through a linear process, you won't generate any aliasing. If the foldback stays well above 10-12k - meaning that Nyquist is only exceeded by a small amount - you almost certainly won't hear it…

Jay Mitchell did not do the tests on that thread, but it used his sweep which was developed in 2008 specifically to test for aliasing in amp sims (probably AxeFX I imagine).

I've met so many "professionals" who have no idea what they're talking about... it's amazing. Especially audio engineers.

[guitarzan]

Here’s what Jay Mitchell says about the sweep used in the TGP ToneX aliasing thread (again, he is an audio engineer in real life, like, a real one):

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... t-41454783

…The sweep covers the full range of guitar fundamentals and adds large amounts of harmonic content up to fifth order…

… the sweep is not intended to generate aliasing. The harmonics added by nonlinear processes create aliasing. If you play the sweep through a linear process, you won't generate any aliasing. If the foldback stays well above 10-12k - meaning that Nyquist is only exceeded by a small amount - you almost certainly won't hear it…

Jay Mitchell did not do the tests on that thread, but it used his sweep which was developed in 2008 specifically to test for aliasing in amp sims (probably AxeFX I imagine).

I've met so many "professionals" who have no idea what they're talking about... it's amazing. Especially audio engineers.

So a pure fundamental makes a stand in for a guitar signal, sans harmonics (or random harmonics, as it’s ‘filthy’). Brilliant.

At least the IK onsite propaganda dipshit is no longer full time. Amplitube blows! None worse, none. ToneX could be truly great, but the fan base will insulate it from ever improving, just as they insured Amplitube will always stay crap.

ToneX aliases, it is audible, no testing required, though considered testing does prove it is aliasing without a doubt. The reason they tested it in the first place is IK claims it is aliasing free but you can hear that it probably isn’t true. Something was audibly wrong and the test shows it is indeed aliasing, but god forbid they should change anything!

[YnJ]

I have the Boss HM-2, the original purchased when it was recently released,

ill give you 20 quid for it

The orginal Made in Japan HM-2 I have actually goes for as much as 200 dollar/euro over here. I really should sell it, I never use it, it's the only Boss pedal left from my first pedal board not sold or stolen years ago though

[YnJ]

I have the Boss HM-2, the original purchased when it was recently released, so I probably was a tad hyperbolic. That thing is shite, only useful as a booster.

You no like chainsaw?

I think I should have pressed charges against Roland for misleading marketing, they called it Heavy Metal, not Rotten Herring as they should have