KVR Dev Challenge 2016!

[Compyfox]

Are we talking about the same thing?
I'm talking about the standalone tool DC'16 entry called "AutoTonic Player", which derived from a product already released in July 2016... I didn't follow what has been discussed so far - was busy in the studio, testing stuff and overhauling my rig

[SadKo]

Okay let's say that's true. Still, as long as you can add more than 4 GB memory to your 32-bit OS (sure you may not be able to use apps that needs more than 4 GB for that app to function) you will still be able to multitask using apps that don't require more than 4 GB to function.

That's true, you may use more than 4GP of physical memory for 32-bit OS on i686 architecture.

Ivan said he likes to multitask, and that's how this discussion started, and with a 32-bit Windows OS that can be extended to have, let's say 16 GB of memory, he could do all that multitasking that he mentioned a few pages back in this thread. I don't think any of the apps that he mentioned requires more than 4 GB to function.

What do you understand under multitasking? Task is low-level OS primitive that can be interpreted as part of multithreading or multiprocessing mechanism. When multithreading is used, all tasks share the same address space and this shared memory for communications is used. So if we have many threads that require huge amount of memory, they will just lack out these 4 GBytes. If you use multiprocessing, all processes have their own address space mapped to their own physical addresses. So for communications such primitives as specially allocated shared memory segments, pipes and sockets are used. But that requires to perform system calls with unpredictable latency, so it's defective for realtime audio processing by design.

Makes me wonder why Microsoft didn't focus more on "Here, this is how you can extend your current OS's memory." and instead just went with "Dump your XP, here's 7, 8 and 10".

It's the problem of relation between Microsoft and users. They do the money by selling the ability to use some bits of some system registers provided by theirs CPU. PAE was available since first Pentium Pro processor came out. First Windows XP came out years ago. So we can conclude that 14 years ago Microsoft still wasn't interested to produce product that utilizes most useful resources of the PC.

Why are people, in a website that is about or indirectly about music-making, pushing for 64-bit plugins when really a typical composer, I presume, don't really use huge sample libraries to make music? Like I mentioned before, most VST plugins don't need 4 GB to function. For example, find me a compressor VST plugin that needs 4 GB to function.

Compressor in classic implementation doesn't require any memory at all. But what to do with huge sample libraries?

It seems like bloatware is the only justification for 64-bit technology. Do developers really want to make, for example, compressors that uses more than 4 GB?
Isn't 64-bit technology similar to constructing 200-lane highways when really, 20-lane highways are adequate for the next 20 years?

This phrase only says that most of people don't understand difference between 64-bit and 32-bit Intel/AMD processors. First of all, there is a possibility now to do 64-bit integer math with one processor instruction => we get more performance. Second, number of general-purpose registers became twice greater. That means that program shall now make less memory reads/stores when operating temporary values. Third, we got extended virtual address space, so now the problem of 4GB userspace is solved. Fourth, segmentation model of i386 now became obsolete, so there is no segmentation stage, so CPUs work faster when translating virtual address directly to physical address without linear address stage. Also, some extensions like AVX, FMA, etc (that allow to vectorize math and get additional performance)... now available only in 64-bit mode.

Also, don't forget that in most cases plugins share the memory with the host (DAW like Cubase, ProTools, etc), and hosts use such mechanisms like pre-caching data from disk.

Some people care about budget?

I don't know what does this phrase actually mean. Could you explain, please?

[Taron]

I dunno what has been talked about prior to that - but this is a general chat thread, and this is just annoying me.


The "full version" was released in July. Yes, it's reused assets, yes it's somewhat "a new product". But it is also a run down version of a product that has already been written.

So if we go by the rules...



But you have to make up your own mind. Still, this years Developer Challenge feels more and more like a slap in the face.

I'm not too concerned about it, because I somehow can't imagine it would get many votes, but if it violates the rules, I suppose it should get disqualified then, shouldn't it? I see no reason for why you wouldn't say it out loud?!
I'm sure their are some blurred lines, but that does feel like a sharp crossing...
(By the way, I don't see what harry writes, so don't let him confuse you either! )

[Compyfox]

I wrote in the early days of the thread that I'm not too fond of the Beat Magazine and Waves Factory release (see my other post) - nothing happened either.

At this point, I don't think that ANY RULES will be adhered to, and the price distribution is also a thing for debate.


Honestly... I have two favorites, not more. Compared to the last years of the DC's (where I gave away all my points), this is NOT much. Also, anything can happen. Not that I begrudge the results, but I'm fairly sure the final results will(!) leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths.

[harryupbabble]

Some people care about budget?

I don't know what does this phrase actually mean. Could you explain, please?

Well, take the highway construction analogy that I mentioned earlier. People don't want to pay taxes that fund wasteful projects. I guess I was seeing 64-bit technology as a "wasteful project", strictly from the viewpoint of the common music-maker. You know that phrase "starving artist"? That's my idea of the common music-maker. But even if music-makers are far from starving, is that a good reason to not watch whatever budget one has and lessen squander?

You explained the advantages of 64-bit technology but I'm like "Hey, I'm doing fine with the 32-bit technology that I am using, If I switch to 64-bit plugins it won't really benefit me because I don't use huge library samples". All it will do is gouge my budget. It's like "Hey I'm just happy with my acoustic guitar, I'm not Jimi Hendrix and I can't afford stacks of Marshall cabinets". But I guess if the ratio of people that want 64-bit plugin versus the people that are happy with their 32-bit plugins is like 51/49 favoring the 64-bit crowd then yeah majority rules, demand and supply. I'm just voicing one opinion. But maybe there are many that are just like me. If no then, maybe nevermind, I tried. Okay bye for now I have to test some more DC16 entries.

[Taron]

I wrote in the early days of the thread that I'm not too fond of the Beat Magazine and Waves Factory release (see my other post) - nothing happened either.

At this point, I don't think that ANY RULES will be adhered to, and the price distribution is also a thing for debate.


Honestly... I have two favorites, not more. Compared to the last years of the DC's (where I gave away all my points), this is NOT much. Also, anything can happen. Not that I begrudge the results, but I'm fairly sure the final results will(!) leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths.

Oh, yeah, that mega long discussion early on, I remember now. I also remember how I tried to help moving forward to other topics AND (duh) now I know why you hinted that this may not be the thread for it... ...sorry, I totally didn't make the connection. I think, this is the thread to bring up the topic, but if it gets out of hand again, I would suggest making a new thread! Something like "DC Rules - from grey- to black-zones" ...or something to that tune?!

I don't know, if I have missed the illusive moderator of the DC, or whether he/she has ever made a peep at all, but thus far I couldn't even find out, who that is!? The reaction you are after would have to come from this mythical being out there, you know. No need to make it feel like we could do anything about it.

Frankly, I couldn't even figure out any details on the prices. I saw some thing about the percentages of the donation and the grand price NAMM, but who gets those monitors (which is all I'd want, really) or any other things... I dunno?! ...very mysterious.

[Compyfox]

Answer me one thing - why should I start a "dedicated thread" that will be shred to pieces within the first 3 pages?!


So unless more people join in and give objective criticism, nothing will change. I stated my point - I do not[/b] find this okay at all. I'm just one voice at this point.

[.jon]

I agree with you Compyfox on this one, AutoTonic Player appears to be in clear violation of the rules. I refused to even download it for this reason. However, enforcing the rules is up to KVR.

The soundbank by Beat is in compliance with the rules as far as I can tell. Promotional in spirit, maybe, but the entry is technically fine, and it's a free plugin anyway.

[Taron]

Comby, you have every reason to be nice to me right now, since I'm with you, too. Read what I wrote and be proud, you brought up a good topic. No need to act so burned, we're with ya'. Writing 20 posts about it won't make it louder, though, so find the moderator or start cussing around wildly until one shows up, hahahaha... I don't know!

But, yeah... +1

[Compyfox]

You asked for it, I've started a dedicated thread.
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=475640

Please keep your promise and direct your further opinion there.


I stated my point.
But don't say I didn't warn you if that thread drifts into insults and finger pointing by page 3.


EDIT: looks like it will happen way sooner than page 3...

[Dominus]

Edited for brevity:

Well, take the highway construction analogy that I mentioned earlier. People don't want to pay taxes that fund wasteful projects.

You explained the advantages of 64-bit technology but I'm like "Hey, I'm doing fine with the 32-bit technology that I am using, If I switch to 64-bit plugins it won't really benefit me because I don't use huge library samples". All it will do is gouge my budget. It's like "Hey I'm just happy with my acoustic guitar, I'm not Jimi Hendrix and I can't afford stacks of Marshall cabinets".

No.

A proper analogy would be a horse drawn covered wagon vs a semi truck. Both can carry goods, one will go a lot farther, faster, and carry a lot more. It's just an evolution of technology. If you want to continue using your wagon, go right ahead, but don't expect people to cater to you when you're in an ever decreasing minority.

Unless your computer is 15+ years old, you shouldn't have a problem switching to a 64 bit OS and host. Creating music is a hobby, one that requires spending money from time to time.

[harryupbabble]

No.

A proper analogy would be a horse drawn covered wagon vs a semi truck. Both can carry goods, one will go a lot farther, faster, and carry a lot more. It's just an evolution of technology. If you want to continue using your wagon, go right ahead, but don't expect people to cater to you when you're in an ever decreasing minority.

Unless your computer is 15+ years old, you shouldn't have a problem switching to a 64 bit OS and host. Creating music is a hobby, one that requires spending money from time to time.

But but but... all the articles I have read says it's the CPU that is responsible for speed and plus I don't know if I am the minority at this moment. Eventually, yeah most likely, 32-bit might be gone but who knows maybe it will take a while. Anyways I think I will end my participation in this debate as I don't want to peace off people. I just thought I had to state my case but now I am going to rest it. Peace on.

[Taron]

Unless your computer is 15+ years old, you shouldn't have a problem switching to a 64 bit OS and host. Creating music is a hobby, one that requires spending money from time to time.

What a wonderful reminder about the glorious aspects of the time we're living in.
When I started out, it was all on hardware. Everything had to be bought, maintained, setup and furnished with tons of cables and devices of various types. Well, it was VERY expensive, even on the smallest of scales.

Now you just buy a cheap computer...they're so cheap right now, even the least powerful ones will be literally 100s of times more powerful than those only a few years older and 1000s of times more powerful than most if not all hardware synths.
AND THEN you come to KVR or vst4free or have some cuddly google-time, haha, and you can set yourself up with fantastic gear to make high quality music, or at least the potential for it, without having to spend a dime (other than your power bill).

Amazing. ...I'm still every now and then totally over the moon about that!

[liqih]

You're right, back on topic! Some instrument test reports.

Noisetar - I love noise in all it's forms. My most ambitious, never-ending project is entirely based on noise processing. A new tool built from ground up for noise by the people who made Sinnah therefore set my expectations very high. It takes the opposite approach to my own Reaktor ensembles, which feature continuous noise modulated internally and happily use up all my screen and CPU. I think a second envelope would have been like a really good addition, and even if I didn't really find the filters, stereo enhancer or reverb usable, it's still a useful, low-footprint noise oscillator that responds well to automation.

Ah, many thanks for the review! So you're a noise lover, great. I could add another envelope,
I guess for the other parameters or simply routable with a menu maybe?
About the FXs yes I understand that you may prefer external ones.
At first I added the reverb and strEhn just to give some ambience to the presets, but then I found some tricks that
I like, automating them. So I made this short example:
http://nusofting.liqihsynth.com/noiseta ... ations.mp3
The first glitches you hear in the MP3 are modulations of strEnh, then LP and HP filters sweeps, a little of strEnh again,
and then reverb mix automation.

Anyway I added the LP and HP filters mostly because it seems to me that when used in a mix context,
with many synths, one always need to limit the frequencies bands of noise.

[.jon]

That's a good point about the FX, I didn't think of automating them, which sounds interesting! But curiously I did try to use the filters for automation, while they indeed perform just fine as static EQ.

Yeah, a mod envelope not linked to amp could be quite useful.