cross talk is usually emi or high frequency interference between channels. it generally would be simulated with a bandpass filter (highpass + lowpass actually, creating a wide band) and some mixing into the opposite channel. the level is usually below -80db except in strange cases with particular types of signals.
for example there is a common headphone circuit that intentionally adds crosstalk passively to create a softer image for listening to stereo content on headphones - where a hard-panned signal would normally sound unnatural due to our expectation of receiving some amount of signal by reflection/reverberation into the opposite ear. the crosstalk in most consoles should be matched using a similar (or identical) circuit and the effect is the same, but at a level like -80db rather than -6db.
it isn't "analog summing" by the way - no, analog summing makes zero difference. asking such a question though (you mean, "does console emulation make a difference?") is similar to asking "does eq make such a difference?" or "does distortion make such a difference?". the difference is all about how much effect you apply, but of course they all make a difference otherwise they wouldn't be doing anything at all.
Slate Virtual Console Plugin is now available
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
If this was directed at me, I know what crosstak is and at what level it usually hovers around.
I only wanted to know if it's still there since it was the ultimate flagship feature advertised for VCC.
I only wanted to know if it's still there since it was the ultimate flagship feature advertised for VCC.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 228 posts since 12 Nov, 2005
Hi Levzi... if you check out this page, you can hear the differences with your own ears and decide whether you think its worth investigating further:
www.slatedigital.com/vccdemos
CompyFox, the crosstalk artifacts are emulated specifically for each console and the algorithm lies in the Mixbuss plugin.
www.slatedigital.com/vccdemos
CompyFox, the crosstalk artifacts are emulated specifically for each console and the algorithm lies in the Mixbuss plugin.
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- KVRian
- 676 posts since 22 Sep, 2007 from Caracas, Venezuela
At least +/-12dB!!Compyfox wrote:... along with the feature request to add +/- 24dB for the gain/trim knob...
@Slate: is that possible?
Cheers
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- Banned
- 4491 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK
Slate wrote:Hi Levzi... if you check out this page, you can hear the differences with your own ears and decide whether you think its worth investigating further:
www.slatedigital.com/vccdemos
CompyFox, the crosstalk artifacts are emulated specifically for each console and the algorithm lies in the Mixbuss plugin.
OK, thanks I appreciate that.
Don't trust those with words of weakness, they are the most aggressive
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- KVRAF
- 14739 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
So it is still there. Thanks for clarification, Steven.Slate wrote:CompyFox, the crosstalk artifacts are emulated specifically for each console and the algorithm lies in the Mixbuss plugin.
Now I only wait for a new update - with hopefully all adressed bugs being fixed (VU, gain knob, etc).
I can definitely back that up!Mercado_Negro wrote:At least +/-12dB!!Compyfox wrote:... along with the feature request to add +/- 24dB for the gain/trim knob...
@Slate: is that possible?
Should be possible do doubt. Or at least do it like Sonimus Satson: +/-12dB for "regular mode" (aka finetuning) and a "supercharged gain" mode (backpanel/config) with +/-24dB
Though I found out that most signal that I had to trim in Cubase to reach 0VU (aka -18dB RMS) was attenuated by -8dB to -18dB. So a +/-24dB trim would indeed be helpful.
UNLESS the VU and the headroom mode is fixed. Then I could also live with +/-12dB, but I'm still voting for more like most consoles have as well.
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- Banned
- 4491 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK
Well i'm lost, I listened to all the comparisons, and well, tbh, I cannot say one is better than the other. I can hear a difference but i'd not want to go as far as to say one sounds any better than the other.
Don't trust those with words of weakness, they are the most aggressive
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- KVRist
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
how about describing the difference you hear?LeVzi wrote:I can hear a difference but i'd not want to go as far as to say one sounds any better than the other.
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- KVRAF
- 12615 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
variations in eq, levels, panning, harmonic content, a little noise and a more "mellow", or "balanced" timbre across channels due to cross-talk.
here is an opinion regarding if it's "worth it" - i own a 16-channel analog console with 5-band eq, mic preamps, six buses. i wouldn't invest in a multi-channel audio interface (8in/8out,etc) just to be able to use the console for mixing. i would and do route my hardware through the console even when soloing them to multi-track because of the improvements in timbre i get from the improved work-flow of the console.
here is an opinion regarding if it's "worth it" - i own a 16-channel analog console with 5-band eq, mic preamps, six buses. i wouldn't invest in a multi-channel audio interface (8in/8out,etc) just to be able to use the console for mixing. i would and do route my hardware through the console even when soloing them to multi-track because of the improvements in timbre i get from the improved work-flow of the console.
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- Banned
- 27 posts since 14 Sep, 2005
i did some mixes in a studio that had VCC yesterday-major label deal and the owner was an old school guy. We quickly tried VCC but he didnt like. His main gripe was the grainy top end hype and digital saturation-dead giveaway its a plug he said. To be honest at one point (even though i think Slates marketing is a joke) i kinda liked it. However after listening to how an SSL should sound (we bussed it out into his SSL) i'll be honest and say this plug is nothing like the real thing. If Slate was honest and said this is just yet another little plugin then everything would be cool
If it works for you then cool so be it.
If it works for you then cool so be it.
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- KVRAF
- 12615 posts since 7 Dec, 2004
obviously what i said in my post above about "i would and do" doesn't apply to a plugin console/emulation/etc. i only use my console for this because:
1) it has much higher quality input buffers than even high-end audio cards tend to have
2) it uses studio levels, not line-levels and so for analog gear designed to run at studio levels it actually works, where "pro" audio cards wouldn't work
3) it's already there sitting around for free, it costs me nothing to reap this benefit
4) it's a hardware device which allows me to adjust eq, gains, bus levels and sends with a hardware interface running through analog circuits and generally to hardware effect modules/inserts/etc.
5) it gives me 16 inputs and six buses which can be selected without re-patching - so it's like a patchbay plus bus switching plus mixing
obviously, all points should be discarded when you look at the software version.
1) it has much higher quality input buffers than even high-end audio cards tend to have
2) it uses studio levels, not line-levels and so for analog gear designed to run at studio levels it actually works, where "pro" audio cards wouldn't work
3) it's already there sitting around for free, it costs me nothing to reap this benefit
4) it's a hardware device which allows me to adjust eq, gains, bus levels and sends with a hardware interface running through analog circuits and generally to hardware effect modules/inserts/etc.
5) it gives me 16 inputs and six buses which can be selected without re-patching - so it's like a patchbay plus bus switching plus mixing
obviously, all points should be discarded when you look at the software version.
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- KVRist
- 484 posts since 15 Jan, 2009
Compyfox wrote:I still hope the VU bug (shift) will be adressed (along with the feature request to add +/- 24dB for the gain/trim knob). 10dB off in terms of the meter sure is a bit much. And I still think having an accourate VU linked to the headroom setup (-18dB RMS = 0 VU with 300ms integration time should resemble the VU being at 0 if I send in a -18dB sine signal) is essential while doing postproduction. At the moment I NEED a third party plugin to see the correct level, and I don't know if the headroom is shifted as well. Especially not if I work subtle (aka not overdriving more than +1,5dB to +2dB on the VU).
Which is the reason why I still use Beta 2.5!
100% agreed! At the moment a -18dBFS sine wave = -7dB on the GUI meter. It should be 0 dB on the GUI meter. On a real console that's how it would read so this is definitely a bug/oversight.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 228 posts since 12 Nov, 2005
We're refinding the VU metering for the next update as I know its an important issue. It will also fix some GUI issues. Win RTAS and 64bit are making great progress.
To hear what the VCC does and to see if it something that may benefit your mixing, you can check out some mix comparisons here:
www.slatedigital.com/vccdemos
I'll be posting more demos there next week, including some comparisons with an SSL 4000 G+ and a Neve 8048 from NRG studios. Rhythmmaster, I'm sorry that VCC is not for you, but audio is subjective so we can't win everyone over. The code in the VCC recreates the sound of the consoles accurate enough to the point where I couldn't tell the difference between the real desks and the plugin (when a properly calibrated test was done). To make sure I wasn't crazy, I had some guys like Ross Hogarth, Jay Baumgardner, Howie Weinberg, Greg Wells, Dave McNair, and Michael Brauer test it out.. and they all thought it performed its job exceptionally well.. so that is good enough for me.
Its a real joy for me to use the VCC to recreate the experience of mixing on an analog desk ITB, and I hope you guys can get an ilok2 so that you can demo and check it out yourself.
To hear what the VCC does and to see if it something that may benefit your mixing, you can check out some mix comparisons here:
www.slatedigital.com/vccdemos
I'll be posting more demos there next week, including some comparisons with an SSL 4000 G+ and a Neve 8048 from NRG studios. Rhythmmaster, I'm sorry that VCC is not for you, but audio is subjective so we can't win everyone over. The code in the VCC recreates the sound of the consoles accurate enough to the point where I couldn't tell the difference between the real desks and the plugin (when a properly calibrated test was done). To make sure I wasn't crazy, I had some guys like Ross Hogarth, Jay Baumgardner, Howie Weinberg, Greg Wells, Dave McNair, and Michael Brauer test it out.. and they all thought it performed its job exceptionally well.. so that is good enough for me.
Its a real joy for me to use the VCC to recreate the experience of mixing on an analog desk ITB, and I hope you guys can get an ilok2 so that you can demo and check it out yourself.
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- KVRian
- 871 posts since 20 Jun, 2010
So, definitely no iLok1 demo?Slate wrote:Its a real joy for me to use the VCC to recreate the experience of mixing on an analog desk ITB, and I hope you guys can get an ilok2 so that you can demo and check it out yourself.
Well, the good thing is, I can stop following VCC threads now
Luckily, there is satson now.
Cheers,
Doc
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- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 27 Mar, 2010 from UK
Got a spare iLok2 if you want to buy it for the demoDr.Gunjah wrote:So, definitely no iLok1 demo?Slate wrote:Its a real joy for me to use the VCC to recreate the experience of mixing on an analog desk ITB, and I hope you guys can get an ilok2 so that you can demo and check it out yourself.
Well, the good thing is, I can stop following VCC threads now
Luckily, there is satson now.
Cheers,
Doc
