VSTis as good as hardware? Similar to Access Virus Quality?

[tony tony chopper]

I think that 'filter' is indeed most people's easy answer about what makes a sound (that, or distortion, or for the most clueless, dithering or bit depth). I agree that what makes the original mp3's character is mostly the phaser, and the envelopes.
NOW, the synth that's supposed to replicate this is still supposed to have its own phaser, which are filters anyway (Sytrus has no phaser so I used its 3x allpass to make one).

[ianscott111]

that unclefreddy thing is actually a good one to compare, see if a virus can even do a sound remotely like that.

its just a plain pwm, with -12 sub osc, 4db above the pwm, with the filter on fairly high res, fairly high saturation, nothing else going on.

bones, i know where you're going with the "you're all idiots!" post, and i totally agree. i doubt you or i or anyone else will ever successfully convince anyone that a virus really stinks as a synthesizer for a lot of stuff. its a fairly easy to use patch replay machine that makes just about all the sounds a kiddie could ever dream of. for the more skilled users, it can do some fairly good sounds and work well as a general purpose synthesizer too.

considering exactly what it does, and what you have to do to use it, i'd actually refuse to take one off somebody's hands for free. i might consider it if i got paid to take it away, but if i take the pricetag into consideration, no way, you've got to be f**king with me, you know?

its totally ludicrous these days.. but, like i said, its a great preset machnie, has all the kiddie sounds, and i dont think there is really any other synth out there that can match up to it in that arena. one major turn off for me to something like a virus is that it has built in effects and routing capability, and secondly that it is capable of multitimbrality. is it trying to be a workstation? is it a synth?.. it seems like a bit of a toy to me.

the mc505 was a big thing back a few years ago, and the virus is sort of just like it, only in a slightly different format.

it is honestly very pathetic to see people refer to the "almighty virus" based upon the very simple saw pads it can do, but, there are kiddies for you, right?

Hmm. I don't use a Virus - I have a Nord Modular - but I do think that having multitimbrality (for me) is definitely NOT a turnoff. Not everyone has time to track out each track of a synth (I know that's how it used to be done). Moreover, not everyone has 9 different synths that they can sequence to get the same sound you'd get with two 4-part multitimbral synths. Also, I'd see built-in effects as more of a convenience than anything else - you don't have to use them if you don't want to, but they're a good way of getting an idea of how a certain effect would sound on a sound before you have a complete mix.

I've only played a Virus once, but it seemed like anything but a toy. No more than any other synth I've played.

[aciddose]

when i say toy, i mean, it has all those convenient features. no, not everyone has the time to overdub every track, one at a time and do things the way they used to be done, but some people want to. some people only do things that way because the end result is better, and when you have built in effects, a ton of presets using those builtin effects, all that layering and stuff going on, it takes a long time to remove or turn off all those things to get back to basics so you can do what you want to do.

generally if you're doing a full old style mix, you can use your effects units seperately to apply everything you want. what is a convenience for some is a pain in the arse for others.

when i use hardware, or software with all the builtin effects - the preset units, i spend almost all of my time searching through presets to turn the damn effects off. generally by the time i do get them turned off, i realize the sound under all the effects is terrible.. that explains why they made the design decision to implement the effects as part of the presets, of course.

it isnt a turnoff if it is well done, but in the cases i've seen it isnt. in software it becomes much more of a pain, since you can do all the modular routing you want in software, generally much faster with external vst/etc effects than you can do with builtin effects. you can layer multiple instances much faster than you can use multitimbral features.

so, for preset kiddies, its great! if you want to spend any time doing more with the instrument than flipping through presets, or starting from a preset and making minor modifications, it is a major pain to have that stuff.

[Tronam]

I am always puzzled by the relentless debates over this instrument. Has it simply become a victim of its own popularity? Whenever I see people who clearly appreciate synthesizers and electronic music say that the Virus sucks, I can't help but suspect that they simply don't like it on the principle that it's "too popular". I think that anyone who has really had an opportunity to *work* with a Virus will likely tell you that it is a very capable VA synth with its own character, a solid feature set and a healthy amount of horsepower to drive a lot of voices, while also working surprisingly well multitimbrally. It also just happens to boast an extremely well tailored preset collection which is clearly aimed at the techno sub-genres. What else did you expect from a German synthesizer company? It was a smart business decision on their part.

You are not forced to use those sounds though. It is far more versatile than the "trance machine" stereotype so often attached to it. I have heard numerous patch and song examples of people using it for all kinds of electronic music. Just as a quick example on hand, here is an excellent recreation of Jean Michel Jarre's Equinoxe 5 (hard to believe the original song is almost 30 years old now ), all done on a single Access Virus B by Per Kristian Risvik:

www.tronam.com/music/PerKristian_VirusKB-Equinoxe5.mp3

I chose not to direct link his page, out of respect for his server. His site can be found at: http://www.perkristian.net

You can also listen to recreations of a variety of vintage synth sounds programmed on the Virus at: http://www.perkristian.net/Virus_KB_Audio.htm

-Tronam

[aciddose]

yes, the virus is a fine synthesizer, although in my opinion more troublesome to use for some purposes than other synthesizers. if you'd bother to read the topic of the thread, or the initial post and replies, you'd see this thread is about software which compares in quality to a virus.

what we've been discussing was at first, there are many peices of software as good or better than a virus. some individuals started to object to this, and said "can your synthesizers do THIS" while posting an extremely lame trance kiddie saw patch. this patch was quickly duplicated several times, where the objectors then began making complaints about the smallest differences between the example mp3s.

it was pointed out several times that some of the other synthesizers sound subjectively better, and thet most likely you wouldnt be able to tell the difference in a mix.

the dicussion then turned to "why are you bothering with such a shit patch anyway, and why compare anything to a virus?". several more examples were given, and then, finally, some comments regarding why the virus isnt so great from multiple perspectives. that was then followed by individuals like yourself popping up completely dumbfounded at the idea somebody doesnt like a virus and then making comments about how great a virus really is, and how it can make all different patches and do things which we all already know it can. those things having absolutely no relevance to why we dislike the virus, the overall thread or anything else in general.

so, if you'd like an explaination as to the reason these discussons with supposeably exactly the same content keep apearing, the reason is that you dont bother to read the entire discussion to find out where it came from or where it is headed.

that said, i just made some optimizations which allowed me to do this in realtime on my p3 550.

http://xhip.cjb.net/temp/public/happyxhipday.mp3

and if that doesnt supply adequate pwnage, i have this:

http://xhip.cjb.net/temp/public/unison.mp3

[the_nihilist]

Well, if I was going to impress someone with a virus patch, I'd ask them if they could match the first patch played in this on a particular piece of software:

http://www.access-music.de/audiodemos/P ... k_Side.mp3

At least the stuff in this show off the synth's versatility moreso than generic supersaw arp #40749. Though it does seem like there's quite a bit of compression and EQ done post...

[fgimian]

I am always puzzled by the relentless debates over this instrument. Has it simply become a victim of its own popularity? Whenever I see people who clearly appreciate synthesizers and electronic music say that the Virus sucks, I can't help but suspect that they simply don't like it on the principle that it's "too popular". I think that anyone who has really had an opportunity to *work* with a Virus will likely tell you that it is a very capable VA synth with its own character, a solid feature set and a healthy amount of horsepower to drive a lot of voices, while also working surprisingly well multitimbrally. It also just happens to boast an extremely well tailored preset collection which is clearly aimed at the techno sub-genres. What else did you expect from a German synthesizer company? It was a smart business decision on their part.

You are not forced to use those sounds though. It is far more versatile than the "trance machine" stereotype so often attached to it. I have heard numerous patch and song examples of people using it for all kinds of electronic music. Just as a quick example on hand, here is an excellent recreation of Jean Michel Jarre's Equinoxe 5 (hard to believe the original song is almost 30 years old now ), all done on a single Access Virus B by Per Kristian Risvik:

www.tronam.com/music/PerKristian_VirusKB-Equinoxe5.mp3

I chose not to direct link his page, out of respect for his server. His site can be found at: http://www.perkristian.net

You can also listen to recreations of a variety of vintage synth sounds programmed on the Virus at: http://www.perkristian.net/Virus_KB_Audio.htm

-Tronam

Thanks a lot for this sound example man and all the info. I will indeed take a listen in a moment. I'd love to see more sound examples of the Virus since I have only heard it used in a mix by great artists like Above & Beyond & BT. There was also a great little video demo of a guy using the Virus Powercore on the TC site if I remember correctly which was rather awesome but not long enough

I really gotta go check it out for myself to decide if it is significantly better than VSTis in general. It's not that I'm looking for that particular character, it's more about quality and featureset. Zebra2 is an incredible synth that appears to provide as many features as the Virus if not more, obviously, it doesn't provide the exact same features as the Access, but nonetheless, it has a huge sonic palette of possibilities.

The xhip synth and Synth1 are incredible sounding instruments for freebies, it is amazing what is available for free these days isn't it ?

There's no need for argument or debate here, I was just keen to hear what Virus users thought of VSTis essentially, did they match the quality ? .etc Is there something that makes the Virus significantly more powerful ? .etc

Sure, the topic has taken a few turns but all the info is great to read and very useful. Thank you all for contributing !

Fots

[crimsontider]

This thread has evolved into a shameless plug for xhip, like may threads as of late. Some may not notice or care that they run off all the interesting posters to a discussion. All that's left (as usual) is the socially awkward, who lacks understanding the simplest conventional social rules and has zero empathy towards other members.


Sugggested reading "Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ":hihi:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055337 ... e&n=283155

[aciddose]

i would use software, unless you really want to stick to presets. the virus may be powerful, but nothing is ever going to offer you the kind of routing flexability and number of effects/synths you can get on a pc.

you have to look at both sides of things though, if you're not going to bother to spend the time to do layering and complex routing, why would you want that ability?

most people do not bother to realize what they have on a pc. i guess most hosts do not implement the things you need to really take advantage of the power available, but with stuff like energyxt and many of the oversampling/etc wrapper plugins available, you're nearly there.

think about stuff by synergy, this was done with analog equipment. how many hours were spent on a single track? what could you accomplish if you put that much effort into something with a pc. these days you can do synergy's several months of work in five minutes and you're simply not satisfied.

a virus, or any other hardware is cool to have around, but the virus is kind of a "acts like a workstation" thing. the reason i dont like the virus or other equipment like it is that, if it is going to try to behave like a workstation, i think it should be as capable as a workstation. if it is an instrument, it should be an instrument and you should apply your own effects and do your own layering. the semi-workstation kind of thing is probably great for a lot of people, but i find myself trapped into working in a specific way when i dont want to with such equipment. for example, sure it offers extensive routing, but can you take out some of the layers and apply external effects to them, before inserting them back into the signal path to have further digital effects applied?

so, you get caught up using either exactly what the synth already has, or you have to turn off all that stuff and use it as a solo instrument with all your own effects - the builtin effects and multitimbrality become useless.

how much of the pricetag is based upon all the extra stuff you get? if you end up in a situation with that stuff going to waste, where you have to record solo tracks with all the effects disabled, it is pretty frustrating.

crimson; thank you for noticing!
http://xhip.cjb.net/temp/public/shameless.mp3

[Tronam]

Thanks a lot for this sound example man and all the info. I will indeed take a listen in a moment. I'd love to see more sound examples of the Virus since I have only heard it used in a mix by great artists like Above & Beyond & BT. There was also a great little video demo of a guy using the Virus Powercore on the TC site if I remember correctly which was rather awesome but not long enough

I really gotta go check it out for myself to decide if it is significantly better than VSTis in general. It's not that I'm looking for that particular character, it's more about quality and featureset. Zebra2 is an incredible synth that appears to provide as many features as the Virus if not more, obviously, it doesn't provide the exact same features as the Access, but nonetheless, it has a huge sonic palette of possibilities.

The xhip synth and Synth1 are incredible sounding instruments for freebies, it is amazing what is available for free these days isn't it ?

There's no need for argument or debate here, I was just keen to hear what Virus users thought of VSTis essentially, did they match the quality ? .etc Is there something that makes the Virus significantly more powerful ? .etc

Sure, the topic has taken a few turns but all the info is great to read and very useful. Thank you all for contributing !

Fots

Well, you may not like the examples on that page very much, as they emulate the sounds of the day... in 1977, but it does at least speak to the versatility of the Virus a little bit. That Equinoxe remake is spot-on marvellous.

After listening to the impressive XSynth.com work by Michael Kastrup using mainly the oft-maligned, 6-year-old Subtractor in Reason, I am more convinced than ever that in the hands of a skilled and talented programmer, any of the richly featured VA synthesizers (VSTi or hardware) we have been discussing have mountains of potential (that largely go untapped, especially in the hands of a hack like myself). The weak link in my sound (very weak, I might add) is not the synth, but me. With the type of sound you are looking for though, it may simply be easiest to coax it out of VSTi's like z3ta+, Vanguard, Zebra2, Synth1 etc... as they can quickly produce that very forward and aggressive sound so sought after in the techno/trance realm, but why not just invest in a used Virus B? They can be found on eBay extremely cheap these days and I doubt you would be disappointed. It's a very complete package that consumes no CPU power and has a tactile interface you can actually grab and tweak, not to mention making a nice controller interface for your VSTi's as well.

-Tronam

[projectdan]

yes, the virus is a fine synthesizer, although in my opinion more troublesome to use for some purposes than other synthesizers. if you'd bother to read the topic of the thread, or the initial post and replies, you'd see this thread is about software which compares in quality to a virus.

what we've been discussing was at first, there are many peices of software as good or better than a virus. some individuals started to object to this, and said "can your synthesizers do THIS" while posting an extremely lame trance kiddie saw patch. this patch was quickly duplicated several times, where the objectors then began making complaints about the smallest differences between the example mp3s.

it was pointed out several times that some of the other synthesizers sound subjectively better, and thet most likely you wouldnt be able to tell the difference in a mix.

the dicussion then turned to "why are you bothering with such a shit patch anyway, and why compare anything to a virus?". several more examples were given, and then, finally, some comments regarding why the virus isnt so great from multiple perspectives. that was then followed by individuals like yourself popping up completely dumbfounded at the idea somebody doesnt like a virus and then making comments about how great a virus really is, and how it can make all different patches and do things which we all already know it can. those things having absolutely no relevance to why we dislike the virus, the overall thread or anything else in general.

so, if you'd like an explaination as to the reason these discussons with supposeably exactly the same content keep apearing, the reason is that you dont bother to read the entire discussion to find out where it came from or where it is headed...

Exactly right.

[Spe3D]

What's funny is the later Virus (hardware) is doing stuff at HIGH kHz, then debates take place with MP3's (MP3's are a reduction in quality no matter how high you encode them) at 44.1 kHz.

I think Each application (hardware or software instrument or effect) - has its own unique character. Some are really good, some are really bad - most just copy one another.

The only real quality choice, is the choice you make yourself - You have the choice to copy everyone and be just like everyone else, and dribble out crap if its crap, or quality if its quality - but for sure you wont be making anything that stands out. OR you can use your own judgement and hone your own skill - this might make room for your own type of style - this might be liked by others (who will copy you over and over) so your crap (if its crap) will be the thing guys are asking about copying in forums for years to come, or (quality if its quality).

The funny bit there is - everyone's idea of quality and crap is different - your best and only hope - is to make your own choices from tying the demos (in shops if its hardware) (on your own current set-ups if its software)

[ericj23]

i remember a thread about 1-2 years ago where the virus is just software in a box crowd finally got a test to prove it once and for all - 24 trance patches (12 froma virus 12 from zeta) were put up blind - people had to find the virus patches

alas they could - one guy got 12 out of 12 i got 9 out of 12 etc etc etc

now the obvious explanation is that the zeta patches were no good - but it really wasn't like that - the patches were well made and covered the same areas

but anyway it stopped the nothing great about virus hollering for at least a month

do we need one again ?

[nuffink]

i remember a thread about 1-2 years ago where the virus is just software in a box crowd finally got a test to prove it once and for all - 24 trance patches (12 froma virus 12 from zeta) were put up blind - people had to find the virus patches

I don't. Would you like to provide a link?

Oh and by the way. The virus is just software in a box.

[aciddose]

but it is a MAGIC box!