How to test a compressor plugin ...

[kylen]

I'm just interested in tools and techniques that help me make music.

I heard that!

[fac]

I'm sorry but this test is meaningless and doesn't say nothing about a compressor's quality. A compressor is a signal processor, therefore it will always process its input signal unless bypassed. It is not required for a compressor not to affect the signal when it has zero threshold. A slight phase change in the process would cause the processor to fail this test.

Moreover, a compressor is usually qualified for what it does to signals *above* threshold, not below threshold. One could make a compressor that did nothing to anything below threshold but sounded horrible when above threshold.

[aciddose]

"doesn't say nothing about"

i know you probably ment to say "doesnt say anything about".

1) it doesnt matter which terms are used, the idea matters. langauge is a representation of ideas, it is imperfect. if you can grasp at all the intention, communication was a success. personally, i can see that greenguy never intended to say anything should have an absolutely null signal when set to his discribed settings. he never said anything bad about any specific peice of software. in my opinion, i think though, a good compressor should have the ability to come close to having no effect on the signal, and things like highpass filters or saturation should be optional. that said, it doesnt mean a compressor which does not meet these criteria is a bad compressor. it only means it is limited, and could otherwise be improved upon.

if you feel angry that he used the term 'damage', i pity your clear lack of intellect. grow a brain and try to understand what he ment by the words he said, not just what the words themselves mean. i DO intend to insult you. btw, f**k you. (to everyone who complained about his use of the word 'damage')

2) i forgot what i was going to complain about here, so thanks for that, and once again f**k you.

why complain about these things? this type of thing really ruins this forum. discuss the topic, compressors. do not list different types of compressors without perpose, without commenting on them. do not lead the topic into some kind of debate which that was never the original intent. please have some respect and dignity and start your own thread for that if you want. you're just pissing people off. you're pissing me off a great deal, trust me.

[fac]

grow a brain and try to understand what he ment by the words he said, not just what the words themselves mean. i DO intend to insult you. btw, fcuk you.

Did you even read what I wrote? When did I complain about greendoor saying "damage". What I said is that the test he performed doesn't help determining any specific properties of a compressor.

On the other hand, if someone doesn't really mean "damage" then he shouldn't write "damage". He could have said "alter", "affect", "change", "modify", or some other synonym but "damage" obviously has a bad connotation.

why complain about these things? this type of thing really ruins this forum. discuss the topic, compressors.

Again, I was not complaining. There is no complaining tone in my post. I am discussing the topic, which is about a test for compressors. I am discussing the test.

You won't earn any "respect and dignity" by saying "fcuk you" to anyone who expresses their opinion.

[aciddose]

fac; sorry if my post was unclear in its intent, but i was refering to everyone who did complain about his use of the word. damage is simply a word. if the intention of the process were to preserve the signal fully, damage would represent a failure. his 'test' was intended to check to see if a compressor had the range of control required to pass the signal without modification. since certain compressors failed, the word damage applies here, directly, and correctly.

once again i'm sorry if you were offended by my post, i was not replying directly to you. think forum, its never personal unless addressed, as this posting is.

i said "f**k you" because i thought greenguy is being a bit too cute with his replies. the guys complaining about his use of langauge are really wrong here, and they are fighting it instead of just taking a step back and thinking. if they can accept the fact i said "f**k you" to them, and live on, they're better people. if they continue to disagree and disrespect my opinions, or the opinions of anyone else, they are the bad guys, not us. if they'd like to say "no, aciddose, f**k YOU." i'll think about anything they have to say. if i'm wrong, sure, please inform me. from my point of view, it seems to me i'm absolutely correct.

[jens]

if you feel angry that he used the term 'damage', i pity your clear lack of intellect. grow a brain and try to understand what he ment by the words he said, not just what the words themselves mean. i DO intend to insult you. btw, fcuk you. (to everyone who complained about his use of the word 'damage')

many people here at kvr simply aren't able to read and comprehend a post that contains more than two complete sentences.

If they try it then always only are few words are suddenly left - buzzing around in their head like a swarm of bees...

these can be words which then trigger some certain emotion - e.g. in this case it works like this:

'damage' -> this word is causing a negative feeling, perhaps some sort of highly uncomfortable arousal in their stomach

'wave-file' -> this reminds them that they're experts and they feel all warm and fuzzy inside

'Voxengo' -> now that sounds really good. Voxengo is what they like so all is good. If possible they now feel even warmer inside -> but wait - didn't this Greendoor-guy mention damage? Did he mention it in the same sentence as Voxengo? - then they try to read the post again (of course they'll fail once more) but there it clearly is in black and white: Voxengo damages the wave-file...

now they know they are experts and they know Voxengo is good, so this Greendoor-guy obviously:

- hasn't got a clue

- is a moron

- is an asshole because he unfoundedly said negative things about this lovely company Voxengo


...and thus they reply and give this Greendoor-fu cker what he deserves.

Who cares that they missed a simple sentence like:

That doesn't mean they are bad, or that they don't sound very good.

Welcome at the wonderful and smart world of kvr!

[fac]

aciddose: I thought your reply was aimed to me, since you quoted me. No offense taken - I can take a "fcuk you" pretty well

Anyway, it has already been established that by "damage" greendoor meant a change in the signal below threshold, which according to the theoretical definition of a compressor, should not happen. It is also known that Voxengo makes very well regarded compressors (among other effects), so let's drop that subject.

Can anyone think about other ways to test various compressors?

[aciddose]

generally doing a few pulse tests of a sine wave at various amplitudes and frequencies can show you the responce pretty accurately. you can then run some of your favorate loops through it, try a dry loop and see if it can give it the great punch you're after, try a wet loop and see if it creates horrible mud, or just levels out the peaks while maintaining clarity.

or, if you like to be very subjective, while you throw togeather a track, just put some compressors over the whole mix and choose one that sounds good, i guess. although i'd probably only have that option as a last resort :)

being able to predict the behaviour of a processor is really important for me, and having it follow "correct" behaviour, and having "correct" functionality is always important. the subjective apearance is often very misleading, i find a good general perpose processor can beat some special thing almost all of the time, and of course for obvious reason!

this is the reason many bundles of effects often do very well. people get used to using those effects, they keep going back to them time and time again. they know what to expect, and they learn what can be done, and how to bring out a specific quality of one of the processors. the effects are up to a decent standard of quality, not perfect, but ok. there is acceptable functionality. of course this makes it simply work, every time.

[herodotus]

1) it doesnt matter which terms are used, the idea matters. langauge is a representation of ideas, it is imperfect. if you can grasp at all the intention, communication was a success. personally, i can see that greenguy never intended to say anything should have an absolutely null signal when set to his discribed settings. he never said anything bad about any specific peice of software. in my opinion, i think though, a good compressor should have the ability to come close to having no effect on the signal, and things like highpass filters or saturation should be optional. that said, it doesnt mean a compressor which does not meet these criteria is a bad compressor. it only means it is limited, and could otherwise be improved upon.

if you feel angry that he used the term 'damage', i pity your clear lack of intellect. grow a brain and try to understand what he ment by the words he said, not just what the words themselves mean. i DO intend to insult you. btw, fcuk you. (to everyone who complained about his use of the word 'damage')

2) i forgot what i was going to complain about here, so thanks for that, and once again fcuk you.

why complain about these things? this type of thing really ruins this forum. discuss the topic, compressors. do not list different types of compressors without perpose, without commenting on them. do not lead the topic into some kind of debate which that was never the original intent. please have some respect and dignity and start your own thread for that if you want. you're just pissing people off. you're pissing me off a great deal, trust me..

Do you really not understand how rude you are?

I like reading your posts, because you are obviously extremely intelligent and well informed. But there is no reason that I can think of (at least no reason that would satisfy a mature adult) to couch your obviously intelligent thoughts in such rude language.

As for this whole issue of 'damage', well, lets go back to what was said in the first post:

I am very pleased with Kjaerhus compressors - these don't damage the signal when not compressing.

I was surprised that the Ultrafunk Sonitus compressor damages the signal - unless the Limiter is switched on.

All Voxengo compressors damage the uncompressed signal! I found it impossible to set any of my Voxengo compressors so that the signal going in was exactly the same signal coming out. Even Marqius set on 'Clean' - with the threshold at 0, ratio at 0, makeup gain at 0 - according to the meters the compressor is doing nothing, but it is impossible to phase cancel the two signals.

This means that Voxengo compressors are not capable of "first doing no harm". That doesn't mean they are bad, or that they don't sound very good. But it does mean that they are very coloured and NOT transparent, ever.

The problem in this is not just the word 'damage'. It is the phrase '"first doing no harm"' which is borrowed from medicine, and which indicates the absolute bare minimum of a physicians duties: "At the very least do no harm" is the implied context. And that along with the word 'damage' does sound like an assertion that Voxengo compressors are failing some test that an ideal compressor would not fail.

Given this implied context, it makes complete sense to point out that some really high end analog gear also 'fails' this test. Because doing so calls the probative value of the test into question.

So perhaps the people objecting to the word 'damage' weren't quite as in need of 'growing a brain' as you might have thought.

And really, it is possible to discuss this stuff without engaging in this kind of rudeness.

I am yet to see a scholarly paper that has phrases like "I pity your clear lack of intellect" in it.

Sounds more like Mr T to me.

[aciddose]

well, mr.t was intended definitely. i was trying to issue a kind of "wake up" call by being rude. as i mentioned, greendoor repeated himself politely multiple times, and he recived repeated ignorance. i felt, perhaps i was wrong but, that it might make some difference if the tone were changed to be slightly more harsh. if i were to be treated harshly, as i can sence the light expression in your comments, i would definitely feel compelled to reconsider what initiated the harshness. so, i hope my harsh tone has worked, yours has definitely worked to make me think. perhaps i was wrong in saying exactly what i said, in exactly that manner, some frustration does play a part.

i disagree partially with your view of 'damage' in that situation, though. i pointed out that his test seemed to intend to check that the range of control required to produce no effect (which by my view, would be required by the 'ideal' of a compressor) was present in the test subjects. since those subjects did indeed fail the test, i do feel 'damage' was approperiately used.

[herodotus]

well, mr.t was intended definitely. i was trying to issue a kind of "wake up" call by being rude. as i mentioned, greendoor repeated himself politely multiple times, and he recived repeated ignorance. i felt, perhaps i was wrong but, that it might make some difference if the tone were changed to be slightly more harsh. if i were to be treated harshly, as i can sence the light expression in your comments, i would definitely feel compelled to reconsider what initiated the harshness. so, i hope my harsh tone has worked, yours has definitely worked to make me think. perhaps i was wrong in saying exactly what i said, in exactly that manner, some frustration does play a part.

Fair enough.

[aciddose]

"do not lead the topic into some kind of debate which was never the original intent. please have some respect and dignity and start your own thread for that if you want."

well, opps.

atleast some of us feel a bit better though.

[tuna]

I am very pleased with Kjaerhus compressors - these don't damage the signal when not compressing.

I was surprised that the Ultrafunk Sonitus compressor damages the signal - unless the Limiter is switched on.

All Voxengo compressors damage the uncompressed signal! I found it impossible to set any of my Voxengo compressors so that the signal going in was exactly the same signal coming out. Even Marqius set on 'Clean' - with the threshold at 0, ratio at 0, makeup gain at 0 - according to the meters the compressor is doing nothing, but it is impossible to phase cancel the two signals.

This means that Voxengo compressors are not capable of "first doing no harm". That doesn't mean they are bad, or that they don't sound very good. But it does mean that they are very coloured and NOT transparent, ever.

Kjaerhus would seem to have the best transparent compressors (by this test).

I've often wondered if some Voxengo plugins have some hidden filtering built in to sweeten the sound. I would prefer to apply my own eq or filters and have control over what I apply. I prefer a compressor to simply compress - and to do zero harm to the signal when not compressing.

"damage" doesn't mean "DAMAGE"
"harm" doesn't mean "HARM"
"prefer" .... mmmm, so you are not imply you favor one compressor than the other.

english isn't my native language, maybe this is some kind of word game that I really don't understand...

need no test, I can hear the difference between compressors & eqs, everybody knows Marquis has "color" and you can use what ever you like, so share the method how you test them is fine, but why need saying which one you "prefer"?

[aciddose]

basically his thoughts were that a good quality compressor should have the ability to pass the signal completely without being entirely bypassed.

if i expand on that thought a bit, i come to the conclusion he was headed in the right direction. the 'ideal' (perfect) compressor should have the ability to do that. there is more than just this fact which is important here; because the processor would have the ability to pass the signal unaffected, it would imply you have control over the full range of the effect, from absolutely no effect, to the maximum the processor is capable of. many effects lack this, and many times i've been trying to get a subtle effect and i get nothing but the extremes or atleast something that is not nearly subtle at all.

i might use the word 'transparent' in place of 'subtle', though my use of this word would then be slightly different than the average with respect to compressors. this shouldnt mean other people should interpret the meaning of what i'm trying to say based entirely upon the simple fact i decided to use that specific word, though. as you can see, i've decided to use 'subtle' since i'm well aware of the dangers of misunderstandings around here.

the posts that happened following the argument between greendoor and others were based upon the fact it really isnt acceptable to attack him for simply using a word that you personally see as not optimal for the specific situation. it was especially bad that it was clearly not really taken into account what he actually ment to say, and the direction of his thinking.

anyway, i hope that clears things up.

also, his suggestion is obviously useful, even if it doesnt perform overall very well as a test of a compressor. it is still useful and a cool effect, especially when used in combination with other things.

[greendoor]

Sorry to cause all this "damage". No "harm" intended I realise I have made several serious mistakes here, such as:

1/ sharing an idea relating to VST effects which I found interesting
2/ expecting all KVRians to be able to read and understand what I am saying in context
3/I failed to use the correct KVR language protocol for defending a logical argument. (FCUK YOU! FCUK YOU VERY MUCH!)

In future I shall try to withhold original thoughts, and speak in words of one syllable.

Vox-en-go GOOD ... unt unt ...