Upgrade FL or Buy energyXT?

[experimental.crow]

how do you do it?

well ...
that's news to me ...
i do it all the time ...

some previous discussions:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... idi+export

[Klemperer]

I always hear FL studio was THIS great (I own Orion Plat myself and like this pretty much) but don't know it besides a demo of the last millenium, nearly. I think you cannot make a mistake buying EnergyXT. As you know how marvellous it is, and better things to come...I'd break the bank and get both.

[flippya2000]

how do you do it?

well ...
that's news to me ...
i do it all the time ...

some previous discussions:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... idi+export

I read those posts, from what I understood, all they say is to use a Midi Out to place your midi notes in before exporting using the misc macros > prepare for midi export.. Hwr, just tried that now & used the resulting midi file in eXT pressing F9 in eXT's piano roll still shows FL is adding loads of extra midi msgs..

[experimental.crow]

how do you do it?

well ...
that's news to me ...
i do it all the time ...

some previous discussions:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... idi+export

I read those posts, from what I understood, all they say is to use a Midi Out to place your midi notes in before exporting using the misc macros > prepare for midi export.. Hwr, just tried that now & used the resulting midi file in eXT pressing F9 in eXT's piano roll still shows FL is adding loads of extra midi msgs..

i'll re-examine this tonight ...
i'll also read your thread @ looptalk ...

[flippya2000]

i'll re-examine this tonight ...
i'll also read your thread @ looptalk ...

..I'd appreciate that
btw, the thread is in techsupport with the title:
Midi - extra data when export

[BONES]

He is literally the furthest possible thing from a FLS user.

Whaddya mean? I have to use it regularly to decypher my bandmates work, although these days he uses ORION a lot more than FL so I don't have to deal with it as often as I used to. Then of course, there's the fact that I was a registered user for a couple of years and actually thought that JMC and I were decent friends. I don't even know why you'd think that I don't like it because there are plenty of things that I really like about it, its just that it has a few fundamental flaws in its workflow. That's why I keep an eye on it - to see if they are ever gonna address those things. If they do I will probably have to take a serious look at it again. Sadly, all they seem to do is add new stuff that I don't need or that costs extra.

[arke]

He is literally the furthest possible thing from a FLS user.

Whaddya mean? I have to use it regularly to decypher my bandmates work, although these days he uses ORION a lot more than FL so I don't have to deal with it as often as I used to. Then of course, there's the fact that I was a registered user for a couple of years and actually thought that JMC and I were decent friends. I don't even know why you'd think that I don't like it because there are plenty of things that I really like about it, its just that it has a few fundamental flaws in its workflow. That's why I keep an eye on it - to see if they are ever gonna address those things. If they do I will probably have to take a serious look at it again. Sadly, all they seem to do is add new stuff that I don't need or that costs extra.

I'd really like to hear the whole story, would you mind sharing it? (maybe in a separate thread). I'm sure it'd be interesting for other people too.

[james0tucson]

He is literally the furthest possible thing from a FLS user.

Whaddya mean? I have to use it regularly to decypher my bandmates work, although these days he uses ORION a lot more than FL so I don't have to deal with it as often as I used to. Then of course, there's the fact that I was a registered user for a couple of years and actually thought that JMC and I were decent friends. I don't even know why you'd think that I don't like it because there are plenty of things that I really like about it, its just that it has a few fundamental flaws in its workflow. That's why I keep an eye on it - to see if they are ever gonna address those things. If they do I will probably have to take a serious look at it again. Sadly, all they seem to do is add new stuff that I don't need or that costs extra.

Okay, so you *are* an FL user. I misunderstood, and offer my apologies. I have not been around KVR long enough to catch any of your specific grievances, but I have seen numerous abstract, vague rants from you about it, usually balanced with rants of how great Orion is.

I've checked out the Orion demo a couple of times, but it just hasn't clicked for me. My experiments with the Orion demo have usually ended with the program crashing, including just a few minutes ago. I'm not as happy with FLS as I'd like to be, but I can't justify changing hosts. To be honest, I tend to use eXT and Audition much more than I use FLS.
If I were going to shell out $300 for Orion, I'd have to seriously consider one of the mainstream hosts, because $300 is getting into that ballpark, if not past it. I'm not sure I could bring myself to buy the $150 lite version of Orion, since I'd really miss the audio recording. On top of that, I couldn't get the demo to work long enough to decide if I would even be interested.

My complaints in FLS are generally superficial. I don't like the UI much; some widgets are too small. I don't like the way it handles time signatures other than 4/4. I don't like the awkward MIDI integration, and I'm shocked to find out that the developers have a certain amount of contempt for MIDI in general.

Recently, I've had my eyes opened to the motivations of IL. The way they released the boxed version to brick&mortar outlets without doing a tiny thing for the users like releasing a beta version, that really sent me a strong, ugly message. It certainly made me start thinking about what other hosts may be out there. When I have those thoughts, I wonder if I might be better off with a little more proficiency using eXT, and I also think of Orion, mainly because you say it's so good. But then, when I try a demo and it just crashes on me, I tend to lose interest.

Just to be fair, I tried the demo again while writing, and it crashed again. To be even more fair, this isn't actually my DAW. I'm not trying to bash Orion, I'm actually very interested in it -- please don't take this wrong.

[BONES]

Plenty of people have stability issues and I think a lot of it related to the fact that we have such a comparatively small user-base from which to track down and eliminate bugs. I've never had any stability problems. Even in the very early days when I was running it alongside Fruity I found them roughly the same in that area. There are only about half-a-dozen active beta-testers and we're mostly in the same situation. Other users report issues but they are often diffciult/impossible for us to reproduce which makes it hard for Rich to fix. Did you try using different drivers?
As for your gripes with FLS, I would say that you won't find much of that any better in ORION, except maybe the GUi stuff. MIDI timing is just very bad on Windoze which is probably why Gol hates it. Its such an ancient, serial protocol that was designed for very low-powered processors, it really needs to be replaced with somethign a little more capable.

[arke]

I've actually played around alot with Orion, and in that time it only crashed once (coincidentally, when I was trying a trick BONES showed me )

Its not bad at all. I actually like its slightly different workflow, theres just a few gripes that make me prefer FL (only 2 insert effects per mixer strip ...relatively limited routing ... lack of pattern automation for other than on-synth parameters). If those things are changed, and pattern slicing is added (which has become very important to me in FL), I'll have to take another look.

Recently, I've had my eyes opened to the motivations of IL. The way they released the boxed version to brick&mortar outlets without doing a tiny thing for the users like releasing a beta version, that really sent me a strong, ugly message. It certainly made me start thinking about what other hosts may be out there.

I think thats a really ignorant statement to make. They were trying to release it for everybody at the same time, and GC f**ked it up. If something like THAT makes you consider a different host from the one you love and know, I'm surprised you haven't abandoned your country, Microsoft Windows, and whatever else.

Hell, if I actually liked Cubarse, I would even consider the dongle, as bad as it is.

[james0tucson]

I think thats a really ignorant statement to make. They were trying to release it for everybody at the same time, and GC f**ked it up.

I took a really dim view of the marketing strategy that placed the product in the venue for new business before doing anything for existing customers. I gave them the benefit of the doubt at first, but the statements made by IL folks confirmed that it was no accident.

In the digital age it is *not* a major undertaking to make a trial version of your updated software available to your subscriber base. They've already got the hard part, a high-traffic web resource an authentication system and a means for distributing license keys.

If something like THAT makes you consider a different host from the one you love and know, I'm surprised you haven't abandoned your country, Microsoft Windows, and whatever else.

You are implying that it's a small and insignificant thing. I saw it as a significant failure. As for "my country", well, I don't live in a very "Republican" part of the country, or I just might. As for "Microsoft", I've been a Linux user and developer since 1992, and most of my business machines are SunOS.

Hell, if I actually liked Cubarse, I would even consider the dongle, as bad as it is.

My problem with the dongle is just the risk of having something that ultimately serves the purpose of locking me out of access to my creative works, which I find unacceptable. The company is trying to protect its copyrights but by doing so, it shows no compunction against abridging my copyrights. That's unbalanced and unfair and completely unacceptable to me.

At least FLS uses a copy protection scheme that makes *me* responsible for its lifespan. I can live with that. When a next generation of computing equipment comes, and stuff like Win32 software can run in emulation better than it runs natively today, dongles and authorization might not work at all, but other schemes probably will.

Others may laugh at the idea that software should be usable 30 or 50 or 100 years after its abandoned, but I actually think it matters.

[SonicBreeze]

Very interesting Thread. I enjoyed reading it a lot. Seldom we see a thread like this In KVR these days.

[BONES]

...only 2 insert effects per mixer strip ...relatively limited routing ... lack of pattern automation for other than on-synth parameters). If those things are changed, and pattern slicing is added (which has become very important to me in FL), I'll have to take another look.

And yet if they added more Inserts I would probably start looking around for something else. On the very rare ocassion I need more than two inserts [sometimes with vocals] I have the option of rerouting to a sub with 4 inserts or using either a MultiFX or BandFX container which turns each insert into 4 or 6 inserts. To my mind its a better way of working because things only get complicated when you need them to - the rest of the time, which is the vast majority of the time, its quick, simple and obvious.
That for me is ORION's fundamental strength - when you want to do something relatively simple you can do it so much faster than in any other host as most of them are set up to allow greater flexibility from the start at the expense of simple tasks. In ORION things only get complicated when you need them to. Its why I haven't bothered with eXT since I bought it last year - there is no such thing as a simple task.

[arke]

...only 2 insert effects per mixer strip ...relatively limited routing ... lack of pattern automation for other than on-synth parameters). If those things are changed, and pattern slicing is added (which has become very important to me in FL), I'll have to take another look.

And yet if they added more Inserts I would probably start looking around for something else. On the very rare ocassion I need more than two inserts [sometimes with vocals] I have the option of rerouting to a sub with 4 inserts or using either a MultiFX or BandFX container which turns each insert into 4 or 6 inserts. To my mind its a better way of working because things only get complicated when you need them to - the rest of the time, which is the vast majority of the time, its quick, simple and obvious.
That for me is ORION's fundamental strength - when you want to do something relatively simple you can do it so much faster than in any other host as most of them are set up to allow greater flexibility from the start at the expense of simple tasks. In ORION things only get complicated when you need them to. Its why I haven't bothered with eXT since I bought it last year - there is no such thing as a simple task.

You know, I wanted to start counting my insert effect stuff to disprove you, but ... I couldn't, since Orion already has an EQ per track. So I tried to come up with a reason why I couldn't use the Orion EQ, and I have the conclusion that about half of the time, the Orion EQ would suffice. So, since I'm so hellbent on disproving you (:hihi:), I looked at my most complicated FL project. And really, it should be easily doable in Orion, except for these points (which I need some clarification on from you):

- I've got my individual drum samples routed to separate mixer tracks, with up to two non-auxiliary inserts, one of them being an EQ which could be handled fine by the Orion EQ about half of the time. Can I do something like that in Orion as well?

- My master track has 5 non-auxiliary inserts (some for just overall stuff and some for global automated effects).

- I know visuals aren't important but I do like to see whats going on (maybe because it really helps, maybe because my ears aren't as trained as other peoples, such as yours), and thus I have two plugins, one is a frequency analyzer (Inspector), one is an oscilloscope (smexoscope from smartelectronix). I guess I can keep convention by always putting all my effects into a container in the first insert slot and visualization into the second insert slot as needed. Guess there isn't an easier way? (not that its hard)

- Slicing of recorded patterns ... this has become pretty central (record 64 bars, chop it up, put the good parts in a pattern ... much faster than recording or step sequencing individual patterns)

- And, the pattern automation for parameters that aren't on the synth itself. This project has 17 patterns just for automation, most of which get used more than once.

- I guess the weird window semantics I'd just have to get used to, just like I got used to FL's lack of drag-and-drop to move patterns or the weird way the Step Sequencer window moves about.

Dammit, BONES, I hate it when you're right

(btw, whens Angelkiller coming out?)

The Ideal host for me would be a mix between Orion, Reason, and FL. Patterns, which can be named, one track per instrument, automatic mixer track per instrument, infinite additional ones as needed, rack-semantics like Reason, ability to just go in and change one note in one instance like in Reason, as well as the ability to go in and change one note which reflects in all the others too. I think you'd like it too.

[BONES]

- I've got my individual drum samples routed to separate mixer tracks, with up to two non-auxiliary inserts, one of them being an EQ which could be handled fine by the Orion EQ about half of the time. Can I do something like that in Orion as well?

Just use as many 4xOut DrumRacks as you need. usually it works really well because you can route all your hats/cymbals through the same out and if you're into layering things liek snares you can put those out through a single channel. I rarely need more than one.

- My master track has 5 non-auxiliary inserts (some for just overall stuff and some for global automated effects).

BandFX/MultiFX will not only give you all the inserts you need but will also give you flexibility in how they are applied that is unmatched by any other host.

- I know visuals aren't important but I do like to see whats going on (maybe because it really helps, maybe because my ears aren't as trained as other peoples, such as yours), and thus I have two plugins, one is a frequency analyzer (Inspector), one is an oscilloscope (smexoscope from smartelectronix). I guess I can keep convention by always putting all my effects into a container in the first insert slot and visualization into the second insert slot as needed. Guess there isn't an easier way? (not that its hard)

Sounds like a good plan to me.

- Slicing of recorded patterns ... this has become pretty central (record 64 bars, chop it up, put the good parts in a pattern ... much faster than recording or step sequencing individual patterns)

Just use the lasso tool to copy/paste the sections you want to combine into a new pattern.

- And, the pattern automation for parameters that aren't on the synth itself. This project has 17 patterns just for automation, most of which get used more than once.

There is song level automation for all effects and mixer paramters as well as for all the things with pattern level automation. The only downside is that you can only copy/paste a whole automation track. Automation is definitely an area where ORION is quite weak but its not something I need more than the absolute most basic implementation of so it never gets in my way. I played around with eXT's automation clips or envelopes or whatever they are and it is just another over-complicated way of doing something that I usually record in real-time and never touch again.

- I guess the weird window semantics I'd just have to get used to, just like I got used to FL's lack of drag-and-drop to move patterns or the weird way the Step Sequencer window moves about.

Its just a matter of a simple shift or perception. Look at each instrument/effect in the same way as an image that you open in Photoshop and it works exactly as you'd expect.

(btw, whens Angelkiller coming out?)

It might be a while because I am still not happy with several aspects of it.

The Ideal host for me would be a mix between Orion, Reason, and FL. Patterns, which can be named, one track per instrument, automatic mixer track per instrument, infinite additional ones as needed, rack-semantics like Reason, ability to just go in and change one note in one instance like in Reason, as well as the ability to go in and change one note which reflects in all the others too. I think you'd like it too.

I don't see any need for named patterns nor for extra mixer tracks nor the ability to edit multiple patterns in that way, as opposed to pitching every pattern for a generator [or a whole song minus drums] up or down in one go [which is a feature I use a lot].