Orion??? POS/NEG opinions please... no trolls.

[TeeLangSun]

I still think multi-timbral VSTi are a stupid idea. I won't use them on principal.

In Cubase, multi-timbral instruments more than make sense. I had some kind of visual problem in Orion because I kept adding the same VST over and over and over to keep accessing different instruments. Eventually, this became a problem and I had all kinds of visual redraw problems. Removing some instances of that VST fixed the problem. In multi-timbral mode, I would have had a single instance of that VSTi, and none of that would have been a problem. Instead I had 8, in addition to the other instruments I already had going. In Cubase, you load up a single instance of a multi-timbral plugin and simply assign midi tracks to different channels of the plugin. When you select the midi track, that track receives midi. It's very simple and there's nothing stupid about it. Having to put that instrument, which has the option of 16 channels/instruments, in single out/stereo mode, then loading that same instrument up 16 times, is definately stupid. And problematic, as I found out recently.

[BONES]

Are you serious!?! Did you even bother to reread the post? If anyone here is guilty of f**king up a perfectly reasonable thread, its you. You are the guy who didn't like my opinion because it differed from yours and decided to get nasty. Nobody had called anybody anything until you weighed in.

[BONES]

Eventually, this became a problem and I had all kinds of visual redraw problems.

So get a decent video card, don't blame your software. ORION handles multi-timbral instruments in much the same way so I really don't see your point.

[Glassback]

stupid + whinges + I think that clock-watching can lead to poor arrangements

disagree, disagree, disagree.
Get a life, idiot.

[DropOutOnSea]

I've been using Orion Platinum since version 4 and while I'm always using other hosts I find I seem to finish more songs in Orion.

I have Fruity Loops and while I can make some exellent loops I usually end up exporting them into Orions sampler to arrange. FL is good for mangling stuff but Orion is so simple to use. Cubase is too complicated I feel for many projects.

So
Positive:
I like way it resembles a hardware studio and think the mixer is excellent for straightforward automated mixing.

Just about all the effects and synths you need. I still end up using Wasp for lots of stuff. Forget the presets and fiddle with it for yourself.

Really handy sampler. Simplicity itself but still tweakable.

Good upgrade path and regular updates.

Negative:
I think a lot of the presets for Ultran and Wavefusion are a bit samey.

Couldn't Synapse chuck in the poly 850 as well (a bit cheeky seeing as there are so many modules already but hey...) Not really a negative then.

For the record I also use Audiomulch - a good partner for Orion as it is quite different and Adobe Audition (Started with CoolEdit 2000 and followed the upgrade path) for mastering and sample editing.

How's that, an on topic post.

[2windy]

You could be banned for being too on topic.

[DropOutOnSea]

You could be banned for being too on topic.

It was a risk I had to take!
oops, Am I off topic now? I think I just spoiled it again!

[Sickle]

I still think multi-timbral VSTi are a stupid idea. I won't use them on principal.

In Cubase, multi-timbral instruments more than make sense. I had some kind of visual problem in Orion because I kept adding the same VST over and over and over to keep accessing different instruments. Eventually, this became a problem and I had all kinds of visual redraw problems. Removing some instances of that VST fixed the problem. In multi-timbral mode, I would have had a single instance of that VSTi, and none of that would have been a problem. Instead I had 8, in addition to the other instruments I already had going. In Cubase, you load up a single instance of a multi-timbral plugin and simply assign midi tracks to different channels of the plugin. When you select the midi track, that track receives midi. It's very simple and there's nothing stupid about it. Having to put that instrument, which has the option of 16 channels/instruments, in single out/stereo mode, then loading that same instrument up 16 times, is definately stupid. And problematic, as I found out recently.

What in the world are you talking about?



You only need to load ONE instance of a multi-timbral in Orion. Load one up, and open it's piano roll. Look at the bottom right and you'll see 'midi channel', where you can select from 1-16 channels for that instrument. You don't even need to 'assign' them like in Cubase, Orion has them there automatically..

[Kriminal]

you need to 'expand tracks to..X' in the playlist to see the pattern for each MIDI channel too.

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

At risk of being on-topic:

If you're going to get Orion, get Platinum. It's well worth the extra money for everything you get! I started with Pro and upgraded pretty quickly, so save yourself some effort and jump in right at the top!

I use eXT and OPlat pretty much exclusively now, between the two of them there's nothing I've not been able to do. OPlat has pretty much all bases covered, even basic audio recording if you need that (like for vocals etc.).

I've only had 1 corrupted song and that was about a year ago. On my system it's been rock-solid, more so than some other software I've used (I won't name names but they know who they are). I have an M-Audio Delta 44 sound card on a solid Asus motherboard with a Radeon 9600xt video card and a P4 3GHz CPU. I've had (rare) crashes but always related to dodgy VST/VSTi that would also cause issues in other hosts, so no blame to OPlat there.

It's not perfect, but the few grouses I have seem to be getting addressed in the next update and none of them are show-stoppers. If you do a lot of pattern-based music it's the best in my opinion! I've tried FL but it just didn't work for me, but host choice is a very personal thing (witness the flaming in any and every thread that comes up, I swear) and what works for one person doesn't work for everyone.

We now return you to your previous flame-war, already in progress.

ps. that's just the way BONES is. If he doesn't call you an idiot, I'd be afraid!

[Saukar30]

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OK, back on subject. As far as Mulit-timbral instruments go on Orion pLat...I use Sampletank, DrFusion, DS404, etc, etc etc. I do have a problem with having so many channels open that you don't use, but on the flipside it's better to have too much than not enough. That's just damn flexible.

By not seeing all of your MIDI channels at once like CUbase for example, it does pose a little problem. But you know what, to be frankly honest who int he world hasn't had something to complain about in their host? You gotta remeber OP is setup to be a pattern-based sequencer..linked around getting out your short ideas. There are always was around that.

I've been using OP for about 4-5 years and have been getting top notch results. I have used CUbase, FLs, but what keeps me coming back to Orion are the synths, the effects and how easy it is to bang out beats. Does it fit my each and every desire? No... and if it did I would then know I was smoking crack LOL. But it WORKS just as well as any other sequencer.

OP is built by a musician for musicians. It has Professional fetaures but it's not intended to have a professional persona. (wow, that could be interperted many ways) That's what Sonar and CUbase are for. The idea for Orion is to make music by patterns. It has come ALONG way and since I have it set-up perfect to my needs I really don't need to look elsewhere.

[Dana1]

I can recommend Orion Platinum highly:

+ Many good fx, convolution processer
+ Toxic 2 FM synth, Sampler, DrumRack (my favorites)
+ Cheap compared to Fruity Loops and others, that usually go for $400-$500 with all synths included.

- Skin could be prettier

[TeeLangSun]

I still think multi-timbral VSTi are a stupid idea. I won't use them on principal.

In Cubase, multi-timbral instruments more than make sense. I had some kind of visual problem in Orion because I kept adding the same VST over and over and over to keep accessing different instruments. Eventually, this became a problem and I had all kinds of visual redraw problems. Removing some instances of that VST fixed the problem. In multi-timbral mode, I would have had a single instance of that VSTi, and none of that would have been a problem. Instead I had 8, in addition to the other instruments I already had going. In Cubase, you load up a single instance of a multi-timbral plugin and simply assign midi tracks to different channels of the plugin. When you select the midi track, that track receives midi. It's very simple and there's nothing stupid about it. Having to put that instrument, which has the option of 16 channels/instruments, in single out/stereo mode, then loading that same instrument up 16 times, is definately stupid. And problematic, as I found out recently.

What in the world are you talking about?



You only need to load ONE instance of a multi-timbral in Orion. Load one up, and open it's piano roll. Look at the bottom right and you'll see 'midi channel', where you can select from 1-16 channels for that instrument. You don't even need to 'assign' them like in Cubase, Orion has them there automatically..

I didn't say that Orion didn't have rudimentary support for multi-timbral synths, just that it's so weak that it's better to not use it. You must first go into the piano roll each time you want to switch instruments. Better if you could just choose the mixer channel and start playing. You also don't realize that all instruments on a given multi-timbral instrument in Orion share the same length of pattern. To simplify this, imagine if you had a bass on channel 1 of Hypersonic. That pattern was 64 notes long. Now move on to a lead part on midi channel 2 of Hypersonic. Let's say you needed that part to be 256 notes in the piano roll. Well now you have a problem. The bass part plays for 64 notes then goes silent. The lead part continues to play for the entire 256 not pattern until it reaches the end and starts over, at which point the bass will also repeat. You're forced to make all parts/instruments of a multi-timbral synth the exact same length in their respective piano rolls or they absolutely will not loop correctly. You also don't know that in order to simply play a different instrument, you must actually go into the piano roll of that instrument, and change midi channels there! If you're looking at the mixer, you are several clicks away from choosing a different instrument. To make matters worse, what happens when you need to choose the synth part on channel 4, but you want to tweak some knobs on that synth? What happens is you can't do it! There's another more complicated way of dealing with midi channels in Orion which would probably allow you to do this, but that method involves actually switching midi channels on your midi keyboard which further adds to the mess. In the end, it's far easier to just not use multi-timbral synths in Orion, where possible. And you think that all of this is better than assigning a midi channel to a synth in Cubase?

As for Bones comment that Orion and Cubase handle multi-timbral synths in much the same way. Bones just has no clue about Cubase but is always ready with a comment regardless. In Cubase, all the above can be easily done, even without touching the mouse. Switching instruments is as simple as a single key on my computer keyboard. There's literally nothing to think of. midi tracks and instruments are independent and that requires that every instrument be assigned to a midi channel, but once it's assigned, playing the various instruments of a multi-timbral synth are exactly the same as playing completely different instruments. You just choose the midi track either by mouse or by computer keyboard, and start playing.

I say all this because this simply the way it is. Not because I'm bashing Orion. I'm currently using Orion more than anything else, but it is what it is and it's support for multi-timbral instruments has always been criticized by anyone who'd be interested in using multi-timbral synths. Bones doesn't use them so that automatically means that they're concept. I bet he thinks that VST plugins are also stupid since Orion provides everything he needs to sustain his entire life.

[Kriminal]

I cant really see what the advanage is using MT synths over using multiple versions of a given synth. No CPU advantage for sure.

Is there something im missing you could explain, cos i cant see it from where i am? (apart from having lots of GUI's)

[crimsonwarlock]

I cant really see what the advanage is using MT synths over using multiple versions of a given synth. No CPU advantage for sure.

Is there something im missing you could explain, cos i cant see it from where i am? (apart from having lots of GUI's)

I do agree that multi-timbral synths in Orion are something that can be avoided. And indeed there is no difference in CPU load between one multi-timbral synth and several copies of the same synth running different sounds. I did a very comprehensive test way back on Orion-Central with several multi-timbral sysnths and there was no difference at all. The simple logic behind this is that CPU-load is not based on how many synths you load but how many voices are playing (funny enough the amount of voices available also has always been the limiting factor in hardware synths).

However, there is one instrument that ads something when used multi-timbral and that is DS404: as it is capable of creating different 'layers' based on one loaded sample-set in this case using it as a multi-timbral instrument does have an advantage.

Everything together I love OP. It is a great environment to work with and I like especially the fact that it is mixer-centric, like a REAL studio. There are a few things I still like to see in Orion but I'm sure those will come. However, I don't think it will ever talk to my control surface but I can always export the tracks and mixdown in SONAR (although I would better like it the other way around, export from SONAR and mixdown in Orion)