Why are you using prepared grooves?

[soulata]

For the same reason I don't like to use too much prefabbed stuff like loops. I believe it is in my capabilities to create my own and even if it's not as good as a precreated one, my capabilities will only increase by practice.

Would you have the guts to tell that your clients?

"Yeah, your track'd sound better if we used this loop but I can't stand loops so here's my humble approximation of it"

what for?

k

[kaden]

Yanno, the whole 'it's just the drum parts, it's ok to lift them' philosophy kinda rankles me.

Just for fun, substitute 'bass line', 'melody', 'chord progression', 'solo' or 'lyric' for 'groove' in all your arguments in favour of using other peoples' creativity and signing your name to it.

Would you still feel as masterfully creative admitting you didn't actually compose that lot too?

[bjarnenorheim]

autechre actually made some cool stuff doing that:)

[Hewitt Huntwork]

Starting from that premise, if your methodology is simply to take finished loops of fully produced music and layer them together, that seems a rather "lazy" approach to the process of musical composition, does it not?

Laziness itself can not be defined in absolutes. It is relative to the abilities and, dare I say, resources of the individual. Did you ever watch the PBS show Frontier House? These families lived away from civilization and only had resources that would have existed in the 1800s. They even wore the clothes of the time. I remember that just to do things we take for granted, like baking bread, was something that took up the better part of a day. Does the fact that I can buy a loaf of bread in the grocery store make me lazy? I could have some notion that the bread I bought was going to be part of a special food creation that was unlike any other, or I could just be trying not to starve to death, or anything in between. Nobody's opinions about the bread have any merit. You like it or you don't. Eat it or don't.

I could set up a shaker and a mike and record myself playing, but if I use a better-sounding performance somebody else already recorded (and licensed to me for the purpose of using in my track) it frees me up to focus on aspects of my art that only I can provide, whether I'm a brilliant lyricist or a blistering shredder or Clarence Clemons. Loops are just another convenience, like a flanger pedal. Sure, you could record a part to tape and tap the reels to create flanging, but if you're "lazy" the pedal is there for you.

What I was trying to say before is that it does not matter if an artistic approach is defined as lazy by anyone, including the artist. Think of a song that you absolutely love. Now imagine that the artist gives an interview where they confess that the song was created in part using techniques that you consider "lazy". Perhaps the artist also considers the techniques "lazy"... Chances are this will not diminish your love of the song, but if it did, you would have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

But I understand that you have principals, deastman, as an artist must. I'm sure Mozart had some bits of internal logic that John Lennon would have considered pointless, and vice versa. It didn't stop them from being geniuses. My argument is that the philosophies that guide art only affect individual creations, not art as a whole. We employ these principals because we believe they bring us closer to expressing what we want to. For my part, I have foregone this hangup in favor of other hangups.

[herodotus]

Yanno, the whole 'it's just the drum parts, it's ok to lift them' philosophy kinda rankles me.

Just for fun, substitute 'bass line', 'melody', 'chord progression', 'solo' or 'lyric' for 'groove' in all your arguments in favour of using other peoples' creativity and signing your name to it.

Would you still feel as masterfully creative admitting you didn't actually compose that lot too?

The question is, why is using another musicians parts 'lifting'? Why isn't it 'jamming'?

The only case in which using loops is actually 'lifting' is if the persons song or album has a note attached to it saying: 'I totally wrote, played and recorded absolutely everything on this song/album'.

Which is something I have never seen.

[kaden]

The question is, why is using another musicians parts 'lifting'? Why isn't it 'jamming'?

Because that's what it is, if you use it in a composition. Jamming is something entirely different. I've done a *lot* of jamming, and for the most part the goal is to *not* play someone elses' material. Getting together with your mates to rawk out on a bunch of cover tunes doesn't fall into the category of 'jamming' on my homeworld.

The only case in which using loops is actually 'lifting' is if the persons song or album has a note attached to it saying: 'I totally wrote, played and recorded absolutely everything on this song/album'.

Which is something I have never seen.

If you say so.

It's still a lift though.

[herodotus]

The question is, why is using another musicians parts 'lifting'? Why isn't it 'jamming'?

Because that's what it is, if you use it in a composition. Jamming is something entirely different. I've done a *lot* of jamming, and for the most part the goal is to *not* play someone elses' material.

You misunderstand me.

Say you are a guitarist and you don't have a band or any chance of playing with one (perhaps you live in a small town in Iowa, or some similar cultural backwater in Norway or Chile or wherever; such people do exist). You buy some loops, load up a couple, and play.

How is this guitarist 'playing someone else's material'?

[Toxikator]

Because kaden works hard on his own loops and is threatened by the idea that your guitarist might be succesful without having done all the work he does.

[vurt]

Yanno, the whole 'it's just the drum parts, it's ok to lift them' philosophy kinda rankles me.

Just for fun, substitute 'bass line', 'melody', 'chord progression', 'solo' or 'lyric' for 'groove' in all your arguments in favour of using other peoples' creativity and signing your name to it.

Would you still feel as masterfully creative admitting you didn't actually compose that lot too?

perhaps if i was a shit hot drummer but had no idea with a guitar...

[deastman]

Laziness itself can not be defined in absolutes. It is relative to the abilities and, dare I say, resources of the individual. Did you ever watch the PBS show Frontier House?

I agree that there are no absolutes. I said that in my first post. I see nothing wrong with using an occasional loop. I did see some of Frontier House, and it really made me appreciate all of our modern conveniences.

Loops are just another convenience, like a flanger pedal.

A flanger pedal is an effect which modifies the sound you feed into it. A loop is a piece of prerecorded music. Thats a rather significant difference, IMHO.

Chances are this will not diminish your love of the song, but if it did, you would have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

Here again, you are still defining laziness in terms of the product- the finished piece of art and its impact on an audience. I am an artist. I am interested in the act of creating art. Whether people like the end product or not, whether they consider it lazy or not, is totally irrelevant. My whole premise was that a lot of people just getting into music these days are lazy and can't even be bothered to learn an instrument. They just want to paste together music created by others. Its basically "paint by numbers". Maybe they end up pasting together some nice songs, but that doesn't make them any less lazy for abdicating most of their role in the creative process.

Regarding the "jamming" argument, I've jammed with friends before. The most fascinating aspect of jamming is the symbiotic feedback loop which occurs when you respond to what your friends are playing, and they in turn respond to what you are doing, and so on and so on... Its really quite a stretch to call it jamming when you go out and buy a CD of loops recorded in another place and time, by people you've never met, and who never heard the music you'll be marrying their performances to.

And just to reiterate one more time, I think its fine to use a loop once in a while.

[Km7]

Hi all!

Can you tell me why you are using prepared grooves in your songs? Are you convinced of them being better than yours? Are they inspiring your work? Or aren't you able to create your owns?

I have looked over some groove libraries. But at last I have decided to make my own rhythms to my songs cause of the own touch . For me I am not able to say that the song is completely done by me if I use the prepared grooves. what is your opinion?

I don't use them. Although if one's idea requires a groove that already exists, I wouldn't blame him for using it nor I would think something bad about him.

K.

[ghost666]

I don't use loops but I think they can be a viable way of adding to or reaching the completion of a composition.

Did Michael Angelo paint the whole of the Sistine Chapel (arguably his finest work) by hand, by himself?
No... he employed his students & assistants to do a lot of the 'legwork' so to speak!

My point being - it's not necessarily the process or the means, but the end result, that counts!
I don't think anyone could rightfully accuse Michael Angelo of being lazy or unoriginal for using others talents to complete his own works!

[Toxikator]

it's not necessarily the process or the means, but the end result, that counts!

Hear hear!

[Hewitt Huntwork]

Laziness itself can not be defined in absolutes. It is relative to the abilities and, dare I say, resources of the individual. Did you ever watch the PBS show Frontier House?

I agree that there are no absolutes. I said that in my first post. I see nothing wrong with using an occasional loop. I did see some of Frontier House, and it really made me appreciate all of our modern conveniences.

Loops are just another convenience, like a flanger pedal.

A flanger pedal is an effect which modifies the sound you feed into it. A loop is a piece of prerecorded music. Thats a rather significant difference, IMHO.

Chances are this will not diminish your love of the song, but if it did, you would have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

Here again, you are still defining laziness in terms of the product- the finished piece of art and its impact on an audience. I am an artist. I am interested in the act of creating art. Whether people like the end product or not, whether they consider it lazy or not, is totally irrelevant. My whole premise was that a lot of people just getting into music these days are lazy and can't even be bothered to learn an instrument. They just want to paste together music created by others. Its basically "paint by numbers". Maybe they end up pasting together some nice songs, but that doesn't make them any less lazy for abdicating most of their role in the creative process.

Regarding the "jamming" argument, I've jammed with friends before. The most fascinating aspect of jamming is the symbiotic feedback loop which occurs when you respond to what your friends are playing, and they in turn respond to what you are doing, and so on and so on... Its really quite a stretch to call it jamming when you go out and buy a CD of loops recorded in another place and time, by people you've never met, and who never heard the music you'll be marrying their performances to.

And just to reiterate one more time, I think its fine to use a loop once in a while.

I agree with you regarding "Jamming". I choose to view the use of loops as a way of collaborating with yourself (because you make the final choices) and the people who create the source material.

I agree with your point on the flanger, but I don't think it addresses my own. My point is that there is more than one way to create flanging, and using the easier method doesn't constitute laziness.

Lastly, I maintain that there is no such thing as a "lazy" artistic process. There is no predetermined amount of effort or discipline required, except what the artist must put forth to create what he or she wishes. Assuming that Paul McCartney has greater talent than I do, does that make him lazy because he doesn't work as hard as me to create? I have played guitar for over twenty years. I'm sure there are people who haven't been playing nearly that long that can play things I couldn't. Are they lazy because they can do more in less time? I have gifts I don't have to work at. Am I lazy compared to people who do have to work at those things? The answer to all of these is, of course, no.

One final point - I would say that the real product of art is emotion, and that applies equally to the response a person has to the finished piece as well as the emotions conjured by the artist in his or her process. I didn't mean to make it seem that the artist's responses to his or her process AND product are any less valid than that of the viewer or listener.

[bluepride]

Our productions use original material - ground out with good old-fashioned pain and suffering using either Roland Micro-Composers or Cubase Dotz (tm).

No looops. Remember, if you're using loops, those loops were probably made by a musician using MIDI. If you want something real... make your own.