Shows us Theory Newbies how to implement chords.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Here is an example of a very common chord sequence: I-vi-ii7b-V7-I.
The music is in C major for a String Quartet.

Here is the manuscript:


The MIDI can be found here

The MP3 (320kb/s) can be found here here

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[Toxikator]

That's cool (I assume ii7b = iim7?). Where'd you find the progression (or did you write it)?

[JumpingJackFlash]

That's cool (I assume ii7b = iim7?). Where'd you find the progression (or did you write it)?

Yes, technically it's a minor seventh. But the seventh is diatonic to the key, I see no need to distinguish between the different sevenths in tonal music.

The progression is very common, almost to the point of being cliché. It occurs all over the place from Bach to Beethoven (and beyond). The VI-II-V-I is just going down in 5ths. Sometimes you see iii-vi-ii-V-I instead, or I-vi-IV-V-I is also very common, even used in popular music such as Marc Cohn's Walking in Memphis for example.

[Km7]

Exactly. Also, could be simply and elegantly extended a little to Imaj7-vi7-ii7-V7.

[nuffink]

That's cool (I assume ii7b = iim7?). Where'd you find the progression (or did you write it)?

Yes, technically it's a minor seventh. But the seventh is diatonic to the key, I see no need to distinguish between the different sevenths in tonal music.

I'd genuinely like to know what this means.

[JumpingJackFlash]

That's cool (I assume ii7b = iim7?). Where'd you find the progression (or did you write it)?

Yes, technically it's a minor seventh. But the seventh is diatonic to the key, I see no need to distinguish between the different sevenths in tonal music.

I'd genuinely like to know what this means.

What what means?

I assume you know the difference between a major seventh and a minor seventh, or indeed any other sort of seventh.

I was saying that there's no point (in tonal music) of specifying iimin7, or whatever. - This is seldom done with roman numerals anyway. The point is that it doesn't matter what sort of seventh it is, because the seventh note is always contained within the tonic key.

Assuming no accidentals, in a major key, chord I7 is a major seventh. ii7 is a minor seventh. iii7 is a minor seventh, IV7 is a major seventh, V7 is a dominant seventh, vi7 is a minor seventh and vii7 is a half-diminished seventh.

When notating using letters, then yes, it is more important to distinguish between the different types of sevenths. - For example, G7 is different to Gø, but that kind of thing isn't generally done with roman numerals.

Also, the newbie would undoubtedly be confused by all the different sevenths there are available. Simplifying it makes it easier.

If an accidental was included in the seventh, thereby making it non-diatonic, I would probably just include either b or # in-front of the 7 in the roman numeral. ii#7 for example.

[nuffink]

Fascinating. So how do you go about naming the 7th chord built upon the first degree of both the harmonic and melodic minor scales in this notation?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Fascinating. So how do you go about naming the 7th chord built upon the first degree of both the harmonic and melodic minor scales in this notation?

i7. Simple. Of course, the chord would be the same in both harmonic and ascending melodic scales. I suppose you could specify i#7 if you wanted, but there's probably no need (dependant on context).

In fact, probably the best way of doing it would be to use figured bass. - But then you'd have to do it for every chord. The ii7 chord in the above example would be 6/5, the V7 would be simply 7. (All others need no figure as they are in root position).

In the harmonic minor, i7 would have the figure #7. (Assuming it was in root position).

No doubt this is another area where classical and jazz conflicts, and I really don't think another argument on the matter would help anyone, so please let's not have one.

[nuffink]

i7. Simple.

hmmm. Interesting.

[MadBrain]

What what means?

I assume you know the difference between a major seventh and a minor seventh, or indeed any other sort of seventh.

I was saying that there's no point (in tonal music) of specifying iimin7, or whatever. - This is seldom done with roman numerals anyway. The point is that it doesn't matter what sort of seventh it is, because the seventh note is always contained within the tonic key.

Assuming no accidentals, in a major key, chord I7 is a major seventh. ii7 is a minor seventh. iii7 is a minor seventh, IV7 is a major seventh, V7 is a dominant seventh, vi7 is a minor seventh and vii7 is a half-diminished seventh.

When notating using letters, then yes, it is more important to distinguish between the different types of sevenths. - For example, G7 is different to Gø, but that kind of thing isn't generally done with roman numerals.

Also, the newbie would undoubtedly be confused by all the different sevenths there are available. Simplifying it makes it easier.

If an accidental was included in the seventh, thereby making it non-diatonic, I would probably just include either b or # in-front of the 7 in the roman numeral. ii#7 for example.

That's quite strange, because it's the inverse of Jazz practice. In jazz, the "7" doesn't really mean that it's a kind of seventh chord: C7 could just as well be played with a 9th or a 13th. What the "7" means is that you're in Mixolydian mode. This is why from a modern, non-classical point of view, using ii7 for iim7 is a strange notation. Furthermore, you could actually be playing II7 V7 Imaj7, or even II7 V7 Im. That's one part of the classic theory I don't like too much - it sorta assumes you always play the same chords on the same degrees, and that all the notes you use stem from the "main" scale of the song. Stylistically, this sounds very classical, and poorly explains some songs where the I chord is always major, but every other chord of the song is from natural minor, including even a Vm7 (a 90s progressive rock song in this case). In short, I'd be wary of applying classical theory too litterally to pop - there's definitely some good common ground between the two, but classical theory also contains stylistic elements that apply mostly only to classical music.

Btw, amut that "ii7b" chord, when considering it's an inversion (II/IV in slash notation), you could almost say that it's a IV6, giving I VI IV V I instead of I VI II V I.

[Km7]

Another problem is the usage of small and capital letters. II and ii could be easily mistaken, especially if it is hand-written. IIm or II- is better. To me, the modern system is easier for use and for visual recognizing. That's why I prefer it.
But I would appeal to stick to the topic.

[nuffink]

I like the lower case notation if it's used properly. It gives an immediate indication of a major or minor third.
The proper use of roman numeral notation is given (as ever) by the mighty Dolmetsch here... http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory16.htm#triads

(Click it. It's clearer)

Pay particular attention to the following, it's important...

All minor scales are named 'relative' to the major scale on the same key-note.

[Toxikator]

I've never seen 7s notated that way in minor, due to the forms... you can't readily make assumptions about whether it's imm7 or imM7, exactly as Nuffink said. then again in classical music I always see 7s (unless they're V7) notated as Mm, mM, AM, etc...

Third angle, in a roman numeral analysis like that, the 7 could be thought of as the figured bass notation, which indeed DOES assume diatonic intervals unless otherwise noted...

[JumpingJackFlash]

I'm beginning to regret posting that thing!

I am a classically trained musician, and I use the classical methods of notation. In which, generally everything is diatonic (according to key signature) unless specifically stated otherwise.

There are different systems of notation of course, some of which may be more applicable to modern music that uses lots of chromaticism. Chromaticism is certainly used in Classical music, but usually fleetingly, as decoration, part of a modulation, or for a specific effect. Traditionally, in classical notation, we do not bother with notating the little details that you mention. If I see Bø/D, I will get it eventually, but I have to think about it. It's so much easier just to write VII7b.

It doesn't matter whether 7ths are major, minor or whatever. - Who cares? - It's just nomenclature and not important in classical music.

In classical music, we don't think about modes or blue notes, or anything like that. The system may not be perfect, but as my above example is perfectly diatonic, taken (if not directly) from the classical style, the system of notation I used is perfectly acceptable.

I don't comment on every jazz-inspired nuance you write about, so please accept that the classical-style is what I am familiar with, and what I generally write about. I was commenting on a common classical chord-sequence, not attempting to analyse a recent pop song.

[Toxikator]

I agree with your notation (I don't much care for the IIm, II-, IIb, or any other systems). In classical notation, though, 7ths, especially nondominant 7ths, are kind of tricky waters.