Hardware instrument appreciation thread
-
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 31 Jan, 2003
I have always asked myself if the difference is in the algorithm running at low-level straight as hell on a DSP or through N software levels likes on a computer. I mean... is it possible to do better running alghoritms in assembler or C on a dsp than using Visual development system on a computer? Don't fire at me... I'm not a VST developer, it's just curiosity...
-
Zaphod (giancarlo) Zaphod (giancarlo) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=111268
- KVRAF
- 2610 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
sometimes the code is the same, for example virus powercore. The trouble is that even the DA converters are a part of the sound. So even in this case there is a difference ( for example I prefer the original version), guess what happens for something that is not completely digital (for example an hybrid sy/tg 77) or that is ompletely hardware, without converters at all (a moog). I'm not speaking about the interface, I'm speaking about the sound. Every time a vst is doing his job without trying to emulate something, it is great. In the other cases I prefer hardware. What should be clear (and independent from the personal taste), hardware and software are different beasts, even if sometimes the gui is similar.
-
thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240 - KVRAF
- 37262 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from Scottish Borders
-
- KVRAF
- 9600 posts since 17 Sep, 2002 from Gothenburg Sweden
I'll try an answer this as unbiased as i can.mao wrote:I have always asked myself if the difference is in the algorithm running at low-level straight as hell on a DSP or through N software levels likes on a computer. I mean... is it possible to do better running alghoritms in assembler or C on a dsp than using Visual development system on a computer? Don't fire at me... I'm not a VST developer, it's just curiosity...
Not really. Going thru N software levels should'nt matter as it is digital. I fully expect a computer being able of keeping the original integrity of the sound no matter how many levels it goes thru.
Of the hardware synths i know of Motorola 56k DSP are the most common. Used in Access Virus,the Nord series and Novation.What the big boys at Korg,Roland and Yamaha use,i don't know. And compared to a bog standard CPU the 56k does'nt bring anything special to the table. It's 24 but integer with a 56 bit accumulator. One developer had a theory that Integer forced you to better quality algorithms as it is generally harder to work with. Could be the case but let's just say that statement caused some controversy. And you could work like that on a CPU as well if you're so inclined. A CPU can do 64 bit Integer with a 80 bit accumulator so you'll actually have to scale down the quality a bit to match the 56k.
And the choice of programming language should have no effect on the sound though it might lend you to certain solutions. Then again you can program a VST in C or Assembler should you wish to do so.
The sole reason (in my humble opinion) is economics. The big boys can afford to hire the absolute best DSP people,coders,preset designers. Though many of the preset designers work with VSTis nowadays. Eric Pershing and Rob Papen for example. And then there's always the simple a matter of experience. Take Dave Smith for example. He started to make synths before some of the VST designers were even born.
But technically i can't find a single reason a digital hardware synth should sound superiour to a VSTi. More the other way around.
-
- KVRian
- 1358 posts since 15 Oct, 2005 from The Far North
+2 (3?) for software and muddy bass. That's probably the only gripe I have with soft synths. Problem is, if you buy quality hardware, you have to factor in the cost of quality A/D as well...
On the other hand, there's lots more to be said, in favour of HW, when it comes to ergonomics, and the advantage of a dedicated UI. Every single HW synth I've ever tried, from the crappiest groovebox thingie to the most high end stuff, have been more pleasent to play and tweak than just about ANY soft synth/controller combo...
On the other hand, there's lots more to be said, in favour of HW, when it comes to ergonomics, and the advantage of a dedicated UI. Every single HW synth I've ever tried, from the crappiest groovebox thingie to the most high end stuff, have been more pleasent to play and tweak than just about ANY soft synth/controller combo...
-
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 1373 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Finland
Atleast I'm not a backstabbing con artist telling you my plugins are better than anything else.. Positive thing, yes? Admitting there are better things in the world will also lead me to try harder and not settle for mediocre results.. Positive thing, yes?thecontrolcentre wrote: this is a weird thread for someone who sells software to start
Anyhow, this thread was created for people to discuss the issue and express their thoughts(and love) on hardware synths. I got called an idiot and alot of other things when giving an advice to use hw synths because of their better sound in music production on another thread here on kvr. It's good to see that i'm not the only one with these thoughts...
-
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 31 Jan, 2003
mkdr... you know, kvr is a great software related site. Here you find pro ppl with great tech know-how and usually they don't shoot nobody for an opinion. Someone use vst, other hw, other both. But in the last years a lot of kids collecting vst with the "I can't wait for.." syndrome comes up. Today is near to impossible starting a thread without being shooted from someone.
That's really a pity.
Another good thing of hardware is that you HAVE to pay for buying it. Yes I think this is good. When I was 19 I saved my money for a lot of time to get my first Korg DS-8 and I used it down to the bones. But today with free and warez sw things changed a lot. That's how the things evolved. ... but I'm going offtopic...
That's really a pity.
Another good thing of hardware is that you HAVE to pay for buying it. Yes I think this is good. When I was 19 I saved my money for a lot of time to get my first Korg DS-8 and I used it down to the bones. But today with free and warez sw things changed a lot. That's how the things evolved. ... but I'm going offtopic...
-
- KVRAF
- 9600 posts since 17 Sep, 2002 from Gothenburg Sweden
I have nothing against hardware. Shoud i have the time,space and money (so basically money) for them i'd have shitloads of them.
What i have a problem with is people who claim you must use hardware and describes all kinds of mythical aspects to them. The Virus is just software in a box. Get over it. You like it ? Fine. But it's nothing magic about it. When you see people claim it's superiour because it is hardware and you coud'nt possibly do it with software,that's when i get cranky and need a diaper change.
What i have a problem with is people who claim you must use hardware and describes all kinds of mythical aspects to them. The Virus is just software in a box. Get over it. You like it ? Fine. But it's nothing magic about it. When you see people claim it's superiour because it is hardware and you coud'nt possibly do it with software,that's when i get cranky and need a diaper change.
-
- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 1373 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Finland
The point was never that it cant be done, but that it hasn't been done! I only gave an advice to what sounds better, which pretty much answered the original question of "is it worth going out of the box?". So you say it's just software, maybe so, that's why people are so puzzled about it. Why do hw sound better then?! We all would like to know. Maybe you know, cos you seem to know so much...jupiter8 wrote:I have nothing against hardware. Shoud i have the time,space and money (so basically money) for them i'd have shitloads of them.
What i have a problem with is people who claim you must use hardware and describes all kinds of mythical aspects to them. The Virus is just software in a box. Get over it. You like it ? Fine. But it's nothing magic about it. When you see people claim it's superiour because it is hardware and you coud'nt possibly do it with software,that's when i get cranky and need a diaper change.
You don't have to use hw. No one ever said that. I even told to have atleast half hw in your mix. That means that.... get ready for it!.... the other half is software!
jeebus.. why do i even bother...
edit: But hey, don't get me wrong. No hard feelings to anyone from my end. Maybe it was just a big bunch of misunderstandings.. language barrier and so forth. Kvr rocks. Let's keep it that way
-
Zaphod (giancarlo) Zaphod (giancarlo) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=111268
- KVRAF
- 2610 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
imho hardare is NOT magic. Software is NOT magic. But again... I'm waiting for a good software moog.
-
- Beware the Quoth
- 35523 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
the problem is, you assume there's a universal consensus as to what 'better' actually entails in real terms. but there is no such thing. 'better' is entirely subjective.mkdr wrote:I only gave an advice to what sounds better, which pretty much answered the original question of "is it worth going out of the box?".
what is certainly true, is that your arguments, and those of other people of your kind of preference, tend towards almost all possible fallacies of generalisation.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
-
- KVRAF
- 6937 posts since 4 Jun, 2004 from Utrecht, Holland
Probably it's already stated before:
Modern hardware (Motif, Fantom, etc) is just software in a box.
So I voted "all the same".
Modern hardware (Motif, Fantom, etc) is just software in a box.
So I voted "all the same".
My MusicCalc is temporary offline.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
-
- Beware the Quoth
- 35523 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
The fact that the Motif is not running on a general-purpose PC seems to indicate that it must sound better to those who recognise some unquantifiable factor seemingly inherent in all standalone hardware.C00kie wrote:Probably it's already stated before:
Modern hardware (Motif, Fantom, etc) is just software in a box.
So I voted "all the same".
The fact that the new Korg Oasys is running on a general-purpose is an amusing counterpoint.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
-
- KVRAF
- 2208 posts since 13 May, 2005
I never liked the Virus much. The Nordlead series is OK. But they're both nothing like a real analog synth.
It's not about hardware in general (in my case). I don't care for a Motif or any workstation. I don't want to work on a big SSL desk either. I like using Logic for producing and mixing. I'd rather have a fast computer, top converters and a rack full of synths and outboard.
It's the analog synths, the Yamaha FM synths, the high end outboard compressors, EQs and FX that make the difference. That's where software - at the moment - is lacking.
It's not about hardware in general (in my case). I don't care for a Motif or any workstation. I don't want to work on a big SSL desk either. I like using Logic for producing and mixing. I'd rather have a fast computer, top converters and a rack full of synths and outboard.
It's the analog synths, the Yamaha FM synths, the high end outboard compressors, EQs and FX that make the difference. That's where software - at the moment - is lacking.
-
Zaphod (giancarlo) Zaphod (giancarlo) https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=111268
- KVRAF
- 2610 posts since 23 Jun, 2006
no, it's not universal consensus, but 50% are waiting for better sofware and "only" 6% consider software better than hardware. Since this forum is dedicated to software, probably numbers could be even different on (for example) gearslutz. Interesting I should add, because not everyone has a decent experience with hardware (you need to try in your music for getting it)