LA2A, Fairchild, 1176LN, Neve 1093, ... plug in, plug away

[Shy]

It's mentioned everywhere on Sonalksis's site that their technology is based on "state space modeling" of analog circuits. I've never seen anyone else say Sonalksis may be using some incarnation of leaked digital console DSP code. Anything to base this claim on?

[jupiter8]

Focusrite Liquid Mix

Compressor Emulations
Flat Comp / Clean Sound Free Controls Focusrite Liquid Channel DSP compressor
Trany C / US Classic Discrete 1C API 2500 stereo mastering compressor serial number 0016 (Old/Normal/Hard settings)
Trany A / US Classic Discrete 1A API 2500 stereo mastering compressor serial number 0016 (Old/Normal/Soft settings)
Silver 2 / US Modern Tube 1 Avalon VT737SP valve channel strip serial number 28150
Live Sound / Brit Live Sound 1 BSS DPR402 dual compressor/limiter serial number 02-9983-B
London / Brit Boutique Tube 1 Chiswick Reach stereo valve compressor serial number RMS0061
Wasp 2 / Brit Classic Solid State 1 Drawmer DL221X serial number 1008X
Wasp 1 / Brit Classic Tube 1 Drawmer 1960 tube compressor serial number 1002
Big Blue A / US Modern Solid State 1A Dbx 160S compressor/limiter serial number 000004 (standard compression setting)
Big Blue B / US Modern Solid State 1B Dbx 160S compressor/limiter serial number 000004 (Over Easy compression setting)
US Radio / US Classic Solid State 1 Dbx 165 compressor/limiter serial number 1821
Copy Cat / US Modern Copy Cat Empirical Labs EL8 Distressor serial number 1689
Vintage / US Vintage Tube 1 Fairchild Model 670 serial number 530
FF ISA 130 / Focusrite Classic ISA 130 Focusrite ISA 130 serial number F00069T
FF Green 5 / Focusrite Green Channel Strip Focusrite Green channel strip serial number GO05116
FF Red 7 / Focusrite Classic Red 7 Focusrite Red 7 serial number FO6350T
Dunk A / US Modern FET 1 Manley Slam! serial number SLAM120 (FET limiter)
Dunk B/ US Modern Optical 1 Manley Slam! serial number SLAM120 (ELOP opto limiter)
Primitive / US Classic Tube 2 Manley stereo 'variable mu' compressor serial number MSLC61536
Big Green / Brit Classic Optical Joemeek SC2 compressor serial number 05-1038
New Age 2E / US Modern Hybrid 2E Millennia STT1 serial number 0-161 (solid-state input solid-state compressor settings)
New Age 2A / US Modern Hybrid 2A Millennia STT1 serial number 0-161 (tube input tube compressor settings)
Class A 1 / Brit 70's Class A 1 Neve 2254/A dual/stereo compressor/limiter serial number 5008K
Class A 2 / Brit 70's Class A 2 Neve 33609/B dual/stereo compressor/limiter serial number 108
Brit Desk 1 / Brit Classic Desk 1 Neve VR console compressor serial number unknown
Meat Pie/ Brit 60's Class A Pye 84 4060/01 compressor/limiter serial number 60
Grinder A / Brit Modern Desk Copy A Smart Research C2 buss compressor serial number C217
Grinder B / Brit Modern Desk Copy B Smart Research C2 buss compressor serial number C217 (Crush setting)
Mix Buss / Brit Classic Buss SSL FX G384 stereo compressor serial number FX384-180
Brit Desk 2 / Brit Classic Desk 2 SSL SL4000 G+ console compressor serial number unknown
Brit Desk 3 / Brit Modern Desk 1 SSL SL510 5000-series dynamics module serial number unknown
Acme 1/ US Modern Tube 3 Summit DCL200 dual compressor/limiter serial number 0721076
Acme 2/ US Modern Tube 4 Summit TLA100A tube levelling amplifier serial number 0120429
Leveller / US Classic Tube 3 Teletronix LA2A valve compressor/limiter serial number 00227 (silver face pre-Harman)
Brit Tube / Brit Modern Tube 1 TL Audio C1 dual valve compressor serial number 121739
Viking 1 / Danish Classic Tube 1 Tube-Tech CL1B compressor serial number 04150
Viking 2 / Danish Classic Tube 2 Tube-Tech LCA 2B dual/stereo compressor/limiter serial number 04010
Stellar 1 / US Classic Solid State 1 Universal Audio 1176LN (reissue) mono limiting amplifier serial number 1394
Stellar 2 / US Classic Solid State 2 Urei 1176LN mono limiting amplifier serial number 11854 (silver face)
Stellar 3 / US Classic Solid State 3 Urei / Teletronix LA3A mono levelling amplifier serial number 1584 (black face 30dB on rear panel)
Stellar 4 / US Classic Optical 1 Urei LA4 compressor/limiter serial number 4832A (silver face)

EQ Emulations

Class A 2 / Brit 70's Class A 2 EQ four-band EQ section of a Neve 1073 serial number 1742
Trany 4 / US Classic Discrete 4 EQ API 550B four-band EQ serial number 02212
Trany 5 / US Classic Discrete 5 EQ API 559 nine-band EQ serial number AX-GP-02211
Old Tube 1 / US 60's Tube 1 EQ Pultec EQP1 three/four-band EQ serial number 1253
Old Tube 2 / US 60's Tube 2 EQ Pultec MEQ5 three-band EQ serial number 1742
Platinum 1 / Focusrite Platinum Voice Master EQ five-band EQ featured on the original Focusrite Platinum unit serial number P070110
ISA 115 / Focusrite ISA 115 EQ Focusrite ISA 115 six-band EQ
Clas A 4 / Brit 60's Class A 3 EQ three-band EQ section of a Neve 1058 channel strip serial number 375
Trany 3 / US Classic Discrete 3 EQ API 550A four-band EQ serial number 3855
Silver 3 / US Modern Hybrid 3 EQ Avalon VT747SP six-band EQ serial number 27093
Old Tube 3 / US 60's Tube 3 EQ Pultec EQH2 three/four-band EQ serial number 6140
Vintage 3 / US Clasic Discrete 4 EQ EAR 822Q three/four-band EQ serial number TH82
Brit Desk 4 / Brit Modern Desk 4 EQ six-band EQ section of a single module from an SSL E-series desk
Brit Desk 5 / Brit Modern Desk 5 EQ six-band EQ section of a single module from an SSL G-series desk
Huge Tube / US Modern Tube 6 EQ Manley Massive Passive six-band EQ serial number MSMPX1100
Brit Desk 6 / Brit 80's Classic Desk 1 EQ six-band EQ section of a single channel from an Amek Angela console serial number 01314
Silver 2 / US Modern Tube 1 EQ five-band EQ of an Avalon VT737SP channel serial number 12545
Silver 4 / US Modern Tube 1 EQ four-band EQ of an Avalon 2055 serial number 10747
Platinum 2 / Focusrite Platinum Bass Factory EQ seven-band EQ featured on the Japanese-only Platinum Bass Factory serial number P060929
Zebra 2 / US Zebra Discrete Desk Copy EQ Chandler Limited EMI Passive TG Abbey Road

[Stomper]

I made some A/B between the liquid mix and UAD before. the UAD are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than the LM. the controller is cool though.

[Compyfox]

Now this is what I call "detailed" for the Liquid Mix. Is that INCLUDING the upgrade packs or just the core one, jupiter8?

Also I guess I know why UAD is more "advanced" over the Liquid Mix... UAD uses algorithms, the Liquid Mix is based upon impulses if I can remember.

[jens]

liquid Mix uses Sintefex' patented Dynamic Convolution - in theory it should be much more accurate than any model...

[justin3am]

Where I went to school they have a small Capricorn system in the control room for studio D. It was a bear to work with and the DSP indeed did not sound up to par with even the Sound Craft or Allen and Heath boards we used for live sound reinforcment... let alone the VR60 I became familiar with at my former employer's place or even moderate level native plug-ins.

I know that some of the folks at Sonalksis peviously worked for Neve but I have a tough time hearing a connection between the Capricorn algorithms and SV series. I remember using the peaking filter on the Capricorn and having a tough time using the "Pump and Pull" method because they way the peak resonated (even with a relatively gentle Q) made everything sound like it needed to be pulled I also seem to remember that the attack characteristics of the compressor were not well suited for hyping drum transients.

I can understand though, if there is code culled directly from Neve projects, how one might be wary of their products. As an owner of their products I'm very happy with the results they give me, though not because they sound like gear I'm familiar with. If the SV-series algos did originate from the Capricorn DSP, the Sonalksis folks certainly have improved upon it by leaps and bounds.

All that being said, I'm no expert, I could be wrong.

[jupiter8]

Now this is what I call "detailed" for the Liquid Mix. Is that INCLUDING the upgrade packs or just the core one, jupiter8?

I have no idea.

liquid Mix uses Sintefex' patented Dynamic Convolution - in theory it should be much more accurate than any model...

Which theory ? Fairytale theory ?

[jens]

no - with 'in theory' I meant, that if the number of samples is big enough it is possible to approach a reproduction of the original to a point where it is indistinguishable from the original to the human ear - that's immanent to the system they use - it's the same as with normal sampling - of course it might be that the number of samples they use in Liquid Mis is far too small (just as the first samplers used 10bit/16khz or so) - I have no idea - I would need to hear AB-comparisons to make a judgement....

[Compyfox]

I just got this from the Kjaerhus Page about Kjaerhus Classic Compressor

"Classic Compressor is a classic analog style VST Compressor Plugin with a lot of warmth and punch. Special designed to use on individual Instruments and Vocal, but also useable on your final mixes."

No other info what this thing actually is. So does that mean this compressor is not just a standard VCA? Or is it a Feed-Forward/Feed-Back one?

[ddummer]

Wouldn't it be enough to say that a compressor sounds good or not?

If I make a digital compressor would it then always be regarded as crap?

//Daniel

[Compyfox]

I wouldn't say so, Daniel. It's just that if people say "this is analog based", I'm one of those people who then want to know a bit more. Like... what is it built after, is it even an emulation (if it's claimed like that) and if so from what, what type of compressor is it (VCA, Opto, Feed-Back/Forward), etc.

Each tool is usable for something, but it's also a sad fact, that most tools are similar. So the "uniqueness" in them is also a bit issue. And to some it's the features, to some it's that compressor A is a reconstruction of hardware unit A.


I mean hey... your TbT TLs Maximizer is still one of my prefered mastering limiter in a most of mixing jobs, but sometimes just "good sounding" isn't good enough anymore if you really want to understand what's happening with the tools you're using. Especially if there's the add-on "LA" in the name of your plugin and people go haywire about it.

[Dietz]

I agree. there is nothing analog about the Capricorn. It is one of Neve's early digital consoles. It wasn't even trying to be an analog model. I'm sure the built in eq's in most modern DAW's are more advanced. The modern DFC's that i deal with have some really nice DSP code. But i heard that the Capricorn is what leaked. What happened to the code or what has been changed i have know idea. But it was enough to persuade me to stay away for more then one reason.

Where I went to school they have a small Capricorn system in the control room for studio D. It was a bear to work with and the DSP indeed did not sound up to par with even the Sound Craft or Allen and Heath boards we used for live sound reinforcment... let alone the VR60 I became familiar with at my former employer's place or even moderate level native plug-ins.

I'm mostly a lurker on these pages - but I simply _have_ to reply to this massage:

Working on a large Neve Capricorn console almost on a daily basis since many years, I have yet to hear another digital EQ with the musicality and power of the Cap-EQ. No doubt, there's nothing "analogue" or "vintage" in there. Yet, it is a classic of its own, with little to no competition from even the most recent designs.

BTW: _If_ I would have to choose _one_ native EQ that does all the vintage tricks with flawless technical implementation, then it's the Classic Blue PEQ from Algorithmix. -> http://www.algorithmix.com/en/classic_peq_blue.htm

/back to lurker-mode

[justin3am]

Wouldn't it be enough to say that a compressor sounds good or not?

If I make a digital compressor would it then always be regarded as crap?

//Daniel

Not at all, I don't think this discussion has really gone in the direction of analog=good, digital=bad yet (which is a good thing). It's more of a FYI kind of thing at the moment. It's kind of interesting to know what a developer had in mind when designing a plugin (more so, in my opinion, when it departs from a typical "model").

Saying a compressor is "modeled" after such and such a piece of gear is just an easy way of describing the envelope characteristics, how the envelope is triggered, how the different parts of the gain structure respond to being overdriven... so on and so forth. To say a compressor sounds good could mean a lot of things to a lot of people using many different sound sources. A super clean DCA based compressor has an equally important roll in my work as an emulation of an opto-isolated VCA compressor or even a real one.

[justin3am]

Working on a large Neve Capricorn console almost on a daily basis since many years, I have yet to hear another digital EQ with the musicality and power of the Cap-EQ. No doubt, there's nothing "analogue" or "vintage" in there. Yet, it is a classic of its own, with little to no competition from even the most recent designs.

BTW: _If_ I would have to choose _one_ native EQ that does all the vintage tricks with flawless technical implementation, then it's the Classic Blue PEQ from Algorithmix. -> http://www.algorithmix.com/en/classic_peq_blue.htm

/back to lurker-mode

Cheers! I was hoping to hear from someone that has more experience than I. I forgot to mention that what I remember may well be biased by the level of experience I had when I was using it.

And I agree, algorithmix is in a class of it's own.

Thanks for the insight.

[BASSDRIVE]

How about Sonic Timeworks CompressorX???

http://www.sonictimeworks.com/p_compx.php

I think it's old, but seems pretty good judging by the description.