Ask me anything Music Theory and I'll answer

[BERFAB]

What a great thread. Nice to have our own resident 'answer man' on KVR!

Dexter-
When you get done with memyselfandus' question (could take some time), I have a poser that is a fairly frequent one, and I've never really understood the explanations I've heard thus far.

Why are sharps and flats distinguished from each other when they appear to be the same notes with different designations?

I have heard that modern music (the piano keyboard) is an approximate compromise of nuanced tones that are more easily produced by traditional orchestral string instruments. But if this is the case, can a piano or any modern instrument ever be truly 'in tune' with an orchestra?

Cheers
-B

[echomusic]

What a great thread. Nice to have our own resident 'answer man' on KVR!

Dexter-
When you get done with memyselfandus' question (could take some time), I have a poser that is a fairly frequent one, and I've never really understood the explanations I've heard thus far.

Why are sharps and flats distinguished from each other when they appear to be the same notes with different designations?

I have heard that modern music (the piano keyboard) is an approximate compromise of nuanced tones that are more easily produced by traditional orchestral string instruments. But if this is the case, can a piano or any modern instrument ever be truly 'in tune' with an orchestra?

Cheers
-B

I'll answer yours first then get back to his. Sharps and Flats designate a half-step change up or down from the natural. You'll know them as accidentals. It is the same note but with a half-step difference.

So for example you have an E. You can go up a half-step to E sharp (E#) or down a half-step to an E flat (Eb).

I know, I know. I use E# as an example to show relevance. An E# is an F natural. Here is the guideline.

- A Flat is the Sharp of the note below it. (e.g. E Sharp and F Flat is the same note)
- A Sharp is the Flat of the note above it. (e.g. A Sharp and B Flat is the same note)
-The exceptions to the rule are the B and E pitches. There is no "B Sharp" or "E Sharp".
-Coming down the progression there is no "C Flat" or "F Flat".

The pitch of "B Sharp" is a C Natural. Likewise, the pitch of "E Sharp" is an F Natural. Coming down the progression, a "C Flat" is a B Natural, and an "F Flat" is an E Natural.

With regards to all of the above you should never see a B Sharp, E Sharp, C Flat, or F Flat written on a score. Instead you will see the natural notes applied, (C, F, B, and E).

Just remember that natural notes are whole steps, C to D, D to E, etc and there are half-steps in between them. You can think of a keyboard's white and black keys.

They are notated as the same note with an accidental because they mark the half-step of that note.

[unpeople]

Neat. I hadn't heard the "moll-dur/dur-moll" nomenclature before. However, I did happen to hear an example of dur-moll yesterday: the bridge of Average White Band's version of School Boy Crush is in G minor, but the rhythm guitar player is adding some tasty G7s in the background. Nice to be able to give that a name.

The transition from major to minor is 2 steps down for in-octave transitions, and 5 steps up for second octave transitions, each with a half-step variation ascending.

C Major 5 steps up is a minor, G Major -> e minor, and so on. If you were playing in C Major, c minor is a very dramatic change! From all naturals to three flats. Yikes. I'm pitch perfect and just thinking about that makes my ears hurt.

Perhaps you should give the example I cited a listen before you start turning your nose up at perfectly legitimate funk voicings. I take it you're no great fan of Michael Brecker, since he would have made your ears hurt constantly.

[cryophonik]

- A Sharp is the Flat of the note above it. (e.g. A Sharp and B Flat is the same note)
-The exceptions to the rule are the B and E pitches. There is no "B Sharp" or "E Sharp".
-Coming down the progression there is no "C Flat" or "F Flat".

The pitch of "B Sharp" is a C Natural. Likewise, the pitch of "E Sharp" is an F Natural. Coming down the progression, a "C Flat" is a B Natural, and an "F Flat" is an E Natural.

With regards to all of the above you should never see a B Sharp, E Sharp, C Flat, or F Flat written on a score. Instead you will see the natural notes applied, (C, F, B, and E).

They are notated as the same note with an accidental because they mark the half-step of that note.

Sorry, but this is wrong. There are many occasions in which you would see E#, Fb, B#, or Cb. For example, in the key of C#maj, the scale would be:

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C# NOT C# D# F F# G# A# C C#

because you would not have two or more notes with the same letter designation (i.e., F and F#, C and C#), while leaving out contiguous letter designations.

This is particularly important when notating something like a secondary dominant chord. Say for example that you are in the key of Emaj and you are using a secondary dominant of the ii (F#min) chord, which is a C#maj chord. The correct way to notate that C# secondary dominant would be to use a C#, E# (notated with an accidental # in front of the E), G#. This is because the note that is a major third above a C# (and therefore creating the third of the triad) is an E#, not an F (although they are enharmonic notes, and on instruments with discrete tunings they are played the same).

[Ogg Vorbis]

With regards to all of the above you should never see a B Sharp, E Sharp, C Flat, or F Flat written on a score. Instead you will see the natural notes applied, (C, F, B, and E).

What about the key of F# minor? How would you spell a dominant harmony in this key?

[PaulSC]

- A Sharp is the Flat of the note above it. (e.g. A Sharp and B Flat is the same note)
-The exceptions to the rule are the B and E pitches. There is no "B Sharp" or "E Sharp".
-Coming down the progression there is no "C Flat" or "F Flat".

The pitch of "B Sharp" is a C Natural. Likewise, the pitch of "E Sharp" is an F Natural. Coming down the progression, a "C Flat" is a B Natural, and an "F Flat" is an E Natural.

With regards to all of the above you should never see a B Sharp, E Sharp, C Flat, or F Flat written on a score. Instead you will see the natural notes applied, (C, F, B, and E).

They are notated as the same note with an accidental because they mark the half-step of that note.

Sorry, but this is wrong.

Agreed. Giving overly simplistic answers in a thread like this can do more harm than good.

[echomusic]

- A Sharp is the Flat of the note above it. (e.g. A Sharp and B Flat is the same note)
-The exceptions to the rule are the B and E pitches. There is no "B Sharp" or "E Sharp".
-Coming down the progression there is no "C Flat" or "F Flat".

The pitch of "B Sharp" is a C Natural. Likewise, the pitch of "E Sharp" is an F Natural. Coming down the progression, a "C Flat" is a B Natural, and an "F Flat" is an E Natural.

With regards to all of the above you should never see a B Sharp, E Sharp, C Flat, or F Flat written on a score. Instead you will see the natural notes applied, (C, F, B, and E).

They are notated as the same note with an accidental because they mark the half-step of that note.

Sorry, but this is wrong.

Agreed. Giving overly simplistic answers in a thread like this can do more harm than good.

I'm going to address this as a whole and since it was brought up. I didn't say you'd never see it, just shouldn't see it in sheet music. The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

As for the C# Major the uses of the sharps on scales is for the sake of theory. It is noted as C# - D# - E# (F) - F# - G# - A# - B# (C) - C#

On sheet music (not scales and written theory), you will see the naturals marked as part of the key signature. You should look it up yourself and see why those four are avoided so often. Using them in performing sheet music will definitely get you recognized and confuse the heck out of a performer.

As a general rule of thumb the most simple answer is often the most correct one. I didn't oversimplify it. I just pointed out that you should really never see it in sheet music. There is a reason why composers like Bach and Kraus rewrote their pieces later to the enharmonic Db Major (Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb and C)... because it was confusing and notoriously difficult.

[Ogg Vorbis]

The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

What would the notes be for the dominant chord in C#m?

[cryophonik]

I'm going to address this as a whole and since it was brought up. I didn't say you'd never see it, just shouldn't see it in sheet music. The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

As for the C# Major the uses of the sharps on scales is for the sake of theory. It is noted as C# - D# - E# (F) - F# - G# - A# - B# (C) - C#

On sheet music (not scales and written theory), you will see the naturals marked as part of the key signature. You should look it up yourself and see why those four are avoided so often. Using them in performing sheet music will definitely get you recognized and confuse the heck out of a performer.

As a general rule of thumb the most simple answer is often the most correct one. I didn't oversimplify it. I just pointed out that you should really never see it in sheet music. There is a reason why composers like Bach and Kraus rewrote their pieces later to the enharmonic Db Major (Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb and C)... because it was confusing and notoriously difficult.

Thanks for the condescending reply, so here's one of my own. I have looked it up, many times in fact, when I earned my BA in Music Theory. You're still wrong and you still missed the point about when, why, and how to use accidentals (e.g., when secondary dominants are used as I mentioned, or in the far more frequent example of notating the dominant chord of a minor key as Ogg mentioned). You should look it up for yourself. Furthermore, instruments with continuous pitch (e.g., vocals, unfretted string instruments) do not always play enharmonic notes at the same pitch depending on the context, so Cb does not necessarily equal B, nor does E# = F, etc. You should look it up for yourself. And, please stop spreading this misinformation - it's not simpler to be wrong.

[echomusic]

The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

What would the notes be for the dominant chord in C#m?

I think you're trying to get at the C# minor's dominant 7th - which is the root of C# and a 4th half-step F natural. When you're studying theory the major third is E#, but when playing it's F natural. Take a look at a keyboard and play an E# yourself and see.

[PaulSC]

I'm going to address this as a whole and since it was brought up. I didn't say you'd never see it, just shouldn't see it in sheet music. The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

As for the C# Major the uses of the sharps on scales is for the sake of theory. It is noted as C# - D# - E# (F) - F# - G# - A# - B# (C) - C#

On sheet music (not scales and written theory), you will see the naturals marked as part of the key signature. You should look it up yourself and see why those four are avoided so often. Using them in performing sheet music will definitely get you recognized and confuse the heck out of a performer.

This too is untrue. The printed music literature is replete with examples that use E# as the leading tone to F#, and B# as the leading tone to C#. One of the most familiar examples is Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. See for instance m. 4: http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/LookIn ... light.html

As a general rule of thumb the most simple answer is often the most correct one. I didn't oversimplify it. I just pointed out that you should really never see it in sheet music. There is a reason why composers like Bach and Kraus rewrote their pieces later to the enharmonic Db Major (Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb and C)... because it was confusing and notoriously difficult.

What are these pieces that JS Bach allegedly wrote in C# major and later "rewrote" in Db major? Can you name one?

[PaulSC]

The dominant chord in C# minor is of course G-sharp major, spelled G#-B#-D#, and spelled that way consistently in professionally published music.

[cryophonik]

Take a look at a keyboard and play an E# yourself and see.

I just did. I played an E# and, guess what? It was an E#. Then, I played an Abb and, guess what? It was an Abb.

[echomusic]

I'm going to address this as a whole and since it was brought up. I didn't say you'd never see it, just shouldn't see it in sheet music. The C# minor has a C# D# F# and G# (F natural isn't noted).

As for the C# Major the uses of the sharps on scales is for the sake of theory. It is noted as C# - D# - E# (F) - F# - G# - A# - B# (C) - C#

On sheet music (not scales and written theory), you will see the naturals marked as part of the key signature. You should look it up yourself and see why those four are avoided so often. Using them in performing sheet music will definitely get you recognized and confuse the heck out of a performer.

As a general rule of thumb the most simple answer is often the most correct one. I didn't oversimplify it. I just pointed out that you should really never see it in sheet music. There is a reason why composers like Bach and Kraus rewrote their pieces later to the enharmonic Db Major (Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb and C)... because it was confusing and notoriously difficult.

Thanks for the condescending reply, so here's one of my own. I have looked it up, many times in fact, when I earned my BA in Music Theory. You're still wrong and you still missed the point about when, why, and how to use accidentals (e.g., when secondary dominants are used as I mentioned, or in the far more frequent example of notating the dominant chord of a minor key as Ogg mentioned). You should look it up for yourself. Furthermore, instruments with continuous pitch (e.g., vocals, unfretted string instruments) do not always play enharmonic notes at the same pitch depending on the context, so Cb does not necessarily equal B, nor does E# = F, etc. You should look it up for yourself. And, please stop spreading this misinformation - it's not simpler to be wrong.

I'm not going to get into a measuring contest here. It's not misinformation. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. The use of notes like E# are used for the point of theory an not application. You could probably count on one hand the people who used it in composition and stayed with it. 99.9% of them were either rewritten or changed to the enharmonic.

There is no sharps or flats between E->F and B->C. The use of the sharps and flats are reserved for theory, not application of performance. I would almost guarantee that when studying them you will find note pointing to natural.

I don't think I'm being condescending at all. I've taken great care to avoid personal assaults and I have yet to say anyone is wrong, (because when speaking strictly theory, we're both right), however I teach toward application of performing, not just book smarts.

Following that I actually reverse the usage and use theory as the foot note and teach naturals instead of flats. History has shown that is the preferred method of performing.

If you're getting offended I apologize, but facts are facts. There is no sharps or flats between E->F and B->C.


EDIT: I was asked to name at least one. So...
1. Franz Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody No. 6

2. If you're looking for one done by Bach, he actually altered the prelude and fugue (both were in C Major) by adding the key signature of seven sharps. The reason he did it was for the presentation of theory, as was the purpose of both books - introducing it to people learning music.

Again, the use of the sharps and flats instead of the naturals are used for the sake of theory.

They weren't the only ones either. Pollack and Chopin also opted to write in the enharmonic.

[BERFAB]

. . . Furthermore, instruments with continuous pitch (e.g., vocals, unfretted string instruments) do not always play enharmonic notes at the same pitch depending on the context, so Cb does not necessarily equal B, nor does E# = F, etc. You should look it up for yourself. And, please stop spreading this misinformation - it's not simpler to be wrong.

This is consistent with what I recall from my music theory days (well back into the last century!). And that's what my original question was in this thread: If it's true that string instruments are capable of distinguishing between these tones, how can modern 'compromise' instruments such as a piano ever truly be in tune with a traditional orchestra?

-B