What is wrong with music theory?

[A.M. Gold]

Well, I said Grant heard "noise" when he heard music, and described himself as completely "tone deaf". For all we know, he actually didn't hear a chord when C major was played.

That was an extreme, and unverifiable, case, though.

My point was that, in my opinion, music doesn't exist outside of human appreciation. Frequency and time relationships do, but music doesn't. Music is a human perception, just as beauty is. A mountain isn't beautiful without someone to look at it, it's simply a mountain. It may be profound in its own existence, but the perception of its beauty is a human experience.

[Parasiticus]

I learned most of what I know about theory from a sightsinging course. Connecting your ear to what's on the page is the only way to make theory useful.

[jancivil]

Do not kid yourselves people. Random online study might suit a remedial kind of catch up approach, but it isn't going to be really cogent instruction. Most of it's going to be an inefficient use of time, parsing information and wondering where it fits. Information is not knowledge.

Didn't FZ claim to learn most of what he knew at his public library?

Yeah he did. He said a lot of things by way of marketing a personal mythology. Though, he had a teacher at the high school that showed him some things ('what do I like about this song, that's different?' 'parallel fourths') and allowed him all sorts of space, drawing things on the blackboard and finding out how the ideas he had worked or didn't work. He credited teach in the liner notes to 'Freak Out!', in fact.
And he took theory at the community college and obtained basic part writing practice.

how many Frank Zappas here, or in the world, anyway... Here was someone to know enough to throw out the bathwater but not the baby, finding, while still a teen, that the rules of some bygone style to be useless. I have a goodly opinion of my own acumen but I wasn't there at the onset of my music theory study and I can't say I know anybody that was.

I find the 'information, not knowledge' here in this board particularly to be an issue and am addressing that.

I could say that I learned most of what I obtained in terms of information (not most of what I know, which I only know because I tested something, which is the point of that quote (cf. my above citing of the classroom blackboard, FZ writing out things and the school band making it into air molecules vibrating in space) at SF Public Library, but I wouldn't say that's so useful as a model for the world. (Also, SFCM library had a more comprehensive library of scores to follow, not that I took particular advantage as I did at SF Public.)


Edited for syntactical problems. I skipped high school and never had english composition. and it tends to show. .~)

[jancivil]

^ I looked up Gallatin's name but couldn't find anything relating to music. Could you link me to some theory text he's done? I'd love to go through it.

I have tried on the internet to find him to thank him. He's not at CCM any more. That was 1977-78, long before the internet.

I found him mentioned in some texts in context of this or that, but I think he didn't publish, himself. We didn't use any textbooks in class. At the start of the class we sight sang. Sometimes we sang chant in neumes (I didn't retain that). This was honors curriculum so the two years, diatonic/chromatic harmony were given in one year. Most of the year, as everyone in the class had music theory before, we concentrated on chromatic part-writing. We heard the results of the exercises. He stretched us, he had us beat out Messiaen iso-rhythms out of his birdsong work on the desk...

You couldn't substitute a book if he wrote one for the experience with the man, not even hardly.

[trimph1]

He stretched us, he had us beat out Messiaen iso-rhythms out of his birdsong work on the desk...

Can you recall what that birdsong book was? I have quite a few different ones here...

[jancivil]

I don't recall at all, no. This was... 1977-78.

it was challenging! these rhythms violate the bar line... 'the end of time'

I do recognize the stuff on these pages: http://www.musictheory21.com/documents/baur-275-283.pdf

reflecting on it, this had the most profound effect on me.

[deastman]

Well, I said Grant heard "noise" when he heard music, and described himself as completely "tone deaf". For all we know, he actually didn't hear a chord when C major was played.

That was an extreme, and unverifiable, case, though.

My point was that, in my opinion, music doesn't exist outside of human appreciation. Frequency and time relationships do, but music doesn't. Music is a human perception, just as beauty is. A mountain isn't beautiful without someone to look at it, it's simply a mountain. It may be profound in its own existence, but the perception of its beauty is a human experience.

I get what you're saying here, and for the most part I agree. However,appreciation of music, as opposed to other types of sounds, is not limited to humans. For example, when I visit my parents and play their Steinway grand, deer will wander into the yard and stand right outside the window, listening intently until I'm finished.

[freddemillio]

Hi, dear forum members. I am new to music theory lessons and I am searching to find some music theory lessons videos and currently found some on Youtube. Is it worth do learn music theory from online videos or will I learn more from the books. There a re plenty of videos out there and they say exactly the same things except maybe that: ...

My personal advice is to listen to a lot of Django Reinhardt, Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk and Charles Mingus. Try to imitate them and in the process you will pick up a lot of good habits. If you want to go back one generation, then you can try listening to Claude Debussy, Maurice Ravel and Erik Satie. Cesar Franck could be an interesting interlude. Do what they did until you understand why they did what they did and then do something different. It will take a lot of time, but it will be worth it.

When all of that gets too heavy, study the teachings of Ted Greene. See . Ted might be one of the best music teachers that has lived in the past 100 years.

[jancivil]

appreciation of music, as opposed to other types of sounds, is not limited to humans. For example, when I visit my parents and play their Steinway grand, deer will wander into the yard and stand right outside the window, listening intently until I'm finished.

[trimph1]

I don't recall at all, no. This was... 1977-78.

it was challenging! these rhythms violate the bar line... 'the end of time'

I do recognize the stuff on these pages: http://www.musictheory21.com/documents/baur-275-283.pdf

reflecting on it, this had the most profound effect on me.

Messien was amazing .... I have a couple of recordings of that particular piece somewhere in here...

[deastman]

appreciation of music, as opposed to other types of sounds, is not limited to humans. For example, when I visit my parents and play their Steinway grand, deer will wander into the yard and stand right outside the window, listening intently until I'm finished.

Hilarious! Now if I could just get the neighborhood squirrels to learn to patch my modular, I'd have a whole band.

[jancivil]

::D

When I started out as a kid it was the trumpet. this one neighborhood dog would find out every time I practiced and swing by to jam, just post himself at the window and go for it.

[Tomgh]

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.

Since music theory is the 'math' of music (don't get scared) you should probably take a course at a University. You will need the discipline of guided instruction to gain any substantial benefit. Otherwise, you may just glean a small bit of information that wouldn't do you much good. Ear training is also important IMO...

You could start with something like this (http://orpheus.notenova.com/) to get a feel for things...it's basically a system of flash cards to help you with sight reading, intervals, semantics, etc.

JR

Wow I completely disagree with this statement. I successfully thought music theory to friends and students. There is a LOT of information to find online. The problem is when you are just starting out, it's hard to separate the good from the bad.

I think http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazz_guitar_chord_theory.html (http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazz_guitar_chord_theory.html) is a great place to start out and is very clear.

For anything else, just ask here.

[jlocri]

Here was someone to know enough to throw out the bathwater but not the baby, finding, while still a teen, that the rules of some bygone style to be useless.

And which rules are these?

[jancivil]

'no parallel fifths', ideas that certain intervals following others just aren't done in a line. things that have a certain scope limited to a certain context that have not a lot to do with music since. I guess it was put to him out of context like they are hard and fast rules.

I did my due diligence on correct part-writing and found it a useful discipline but the context was perfectly clear to me.

Gallitan took 4 points off my final for a hidden perfect fifth but told me it sounded great. That's daft. This was in late romantic harmony, Wagner type of ambiguity, and by his own statement there isn't an argument for that rule, but he was fairly young and felt he had to be dogmatic I guess. Kind of anal.