KVR Audio

Loki Fuego · Post by **Loki Fuego** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:49 pm

I'm still worried, that by using knowledge of musical theory developed by someone else, I might be in fact cheating. Shouldn't I develop my own musical theory and only then start composing and playing something?

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:24 pm

Yes, Jan, it's all about you. *patpat*

@loki: That worked for Harry Partch, but there are so few Harry Partches these days. I have about a millipartch of genius, enough to blow my nose in a perfect fifth, no more. O, Atlantis.

rbarata · Post by **rbarata** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:33 pm

So, it's cheating!!!

I'm glad we all agree on that.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:39 pm

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:29 pm

jancivil wrote:
debra1rlo wrote:I cheat, but I cheat the right way so it's OK.
I can demonstrate that I know my way around music, quite outside the fact I compensate for lack of keyboard expertise with the key editor. However, when I play something into the piano roll, my ear is in tune with my thinking and so the guesswork is pretty much removed. OTOH: a person that has decided it isn't important to know keys beyond a couple of them in their comfort zone will, by definition, not have obtained the same knowledge.

Thank you for saying exactly what I just said. And for assuming no one but you knows how teh right way to do things/how things should sound. Because that how it sounds when you say that.

jancivil wrote:I also fail at playing the saxophone or violin, but I have knowledge of the music from studying it and the parts I write are convincing; understanding how different keys work is a part of this, it's the study of MUSIC.

And no one else but you knows this or can figure it out. Or is allowed the latitude that they'll eventually work it out of they play it enough. And at least they're playing something, while you are claiming that programming a well written part is equal to playing it. It's not.

jancivil wrote:Deciding that it's a good idea to ignore a part of basic musical knowledge is not the same decision as a decision to focus on instruments in lieu of piano. Deciding to eschew learning any instrument is not the same decision either. This should be clear enough in context. This equivalence you require in order to diss me is not real.

Bullshit. Never said it wasn't a good idea to learn a musical instrument no matter how many times your closed mind wants to keep posting it. And I stand by my statement that you are a fraud for not playing an instrument that you could, nay, SHOULD be able to learn seeing as you are this awesome geetar player and awesome theorist and learning another instrument is FAR easier when you have already learned one, not so much when you haven't.

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:34 pm

jancivil wrote:
debra1rlo wrote:You DON'T play your keyboard parts either but explain it away with your superior condescending attitude based on this "good information" you claim to have. Never mind the person answering you claimed to have studied theory, which was overlooked/dismissed.

I play everything in via a keyboard or zendrum controller and edit it. Much of my music is very difficult to play at all, by anyone, and it is advantageous to have a tool that obviates the problem.

The second statement is irrelevant. In the context of the thread, you can find it pointed out aptly that the composer Chopin used devices in keys owing to the especial way the keyboard is laid out. Beyond the other ramifications, keys have their own physical quality.

I'm sorry, the very fact of you saying 'that you claim to have' and reading in your estimation of my attitude into any statement, your particular emotional backstory with my posts reveals the ad hominem nature of your contribution to this thread, which shows us only this.

Oh so you write music too hard for you to play so it's Ok to use tools and samples because it's you doing it.

If someone else writes stuff that's too hard for them to play and use tools/samples then they are cheating.

Got it.

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:34 pm

Deb, my comment about laying off the insults applies on all sides. By all means argue, but don't take it to the personal stuff.

And consider the (IME) most-quoted xkcd comic.

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:37 pm

Huh? I did? Sorry, not seeing it, I could have been far more insulting.

Meffy · Post by **Meffy** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:38 pm

I could too. Let's not. Wouldn't change anything, would it?

Loki Fuego · Post by **Loki Fuego** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:13 pm

debra1rlo wrote:And no one else but you knows this or can figure it out. Or is allowed the latitude that they'll eventually work it out of they play it enough. And at least they're playing something, while you are claiming that programming a well written part is equal to playing it. It's not.

Hey, it's me who saying that I program everything! But I never claimed that programming a well written part is equal to playing. I can just claim that you won't notice a difference (if we are speaking about synthesized sounds; I won't ever claim that I can program real instruments).

Oh, and I don't care...

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:28 pm

lokifuego wrote:
debra1rlo wrote:And no one else but you knows this or can figure it out. Or is allowed the latitude that they'll eventually work it out of they play it enough. And at least they're playing something, while you are claiming that programming a well written part is equal to playing it. It's not.
Hey, it's me who saying that I program everything! But I never claimed that programming a well written part is equal to playing. I can just claim that you won't notice a difference (if we are speaking about synthesized sounds; I won't ever claim that I can program real instruments).

Oh, and I don't care...

I know, i had no problem with what you wrote, I was more or less agreeing with you. For the record, I have no problem if someone makes music by programming or playing or making odd fart sounds with their underarms. It all depends on what suits the music over everything else. Someone else is arguing because they have been "trained in a superior manner" that it's OK if they use the same tools that they are calling people like you "a cheater" for using.

I also agree the whole argument is silly.

and I believe if you want to be a purist, you damn well better be able to play in everything you write perfectly before you decry anyone else's ability to do the same.

havran · Post by **havran** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:45 pm

@ the OP -- cool idea, and I would think of it as taking advantage of the available technology.

I think it would only be cheating if it went against the rules of whatever games you set for yourself.

Also cool to learn of Irving Berlin's transposing pianos.

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:58 pm

I think my 'progress'--if that is what I'd call it

-- in learning theory is more along the line of a blue-highway approach....

mmmmm---I wonder where this will lead me--sort of thing. Right now I am learning more through doing the music composition thing and seeing how that relates to theory than anything....

I'm doing a bit of 'music/art history' as a sideline to my MBA thing up here...and, discovering people like Stanley Boorman--whose interests lie in medieval/early music and avant garde music. Some of his writing has made me realise that what we see on paper may not necessarily be what the composer wrote in actuality...music being rewritten over time...different tablatures, et cetera...

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:58 pm

oxygenmask · Post by **oxygenmask** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:11 am

One of the first things that I learned in my early music history class (required for college curriculum) was that the modes all were described emotionally. In fact, if you Wiki "musical mode", there's even a chart which described the commonly agreed upon emotional reaction to each mode. I'm not claiming that these descriptions are true, but it certainly does lend itself to the point that different keys/modes are different in character.

My other contribution is this: If I take an awesome lick I've been practicing and transpose it to a completely unrelated key, it sounds like ass and I play it differently. I'm very comfortable in all keys, but there is something special about the way the lick and the key are related. They lend themselves to each other even down to subtle timing differences and even the tiny differences in velocity in my fingers necessary to get the music to click. Once I transpose it back, the "feel" of the music returns. Do I advocate learning all the keys just to know them? No. What a waste of time that would be. Do I advocate learning a new key by saying at the beginning of a new piece, "Let's try this in Gb"? Hell yeah.

Do you consider this cheating?