How to now what chords to play in a specific scale?

[bert786]

For example: Lydian Minor Scale: C,D,E,F#,G,Ab,Bb

What chords to play and in what order?

it all depends of what feel you want as different modes produce different feelings so determine what sound and feel your after then ,create a progression that inhibits that feel.

You could create a chord progression with any chord with any key in the scale it all comes down to how you want it to sound ! ominous ,happy,sad,somber etc.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Aroused by JarJar: this is really interesting, care to put some youtube links together for examples?

Sure-





all pseudo-folk songs which became folk songs. These are just the ones I can recall off the top of my head- when Bartok and Kodaly went out to collect folksongs, at first they accidentally picked up some of these kitschy kind, which were not even old at that time. Then they got deeper into it of course, and documented a huge number of authentic songs.

[Aroused by JarJar]

And here is a composer who was "behind the times", doing more of a 19th century thing in the first half of the 20th century. You can hear what I was talking about earlier, as the melody with little change but performed very differently would be "authentic", but the whole thing has been Westernized.



Some of Bretan's tunes are even better examples. One song has a melody which sung alone, without the piano, is obviously e phrygian, but he harmonized it in Schubert-like A minor. It sounds lovely though, in the highest-grade "pop classical" kind of way.

[jancivil]

Really, I think that the scale from the OP is best serving as something "temporary"

I completely agree. It's in practice maybe something an edumacated jazzer would reach for for a moment to get some flavor over a particular 'change'.

I don't know that anybody has actually used that scale. It's an artificial construction on paper afaict.

Take mode five of 'it', G tonic/same tones, and it makes sense.

these synthetic scales are pretty much coming from western musicians that are bored. some of them, eg., 'byzantine', I've seen that name too, are copped from music that isn't tempered but ratios-based over a steady tonic, or as in maqam limited 'modulation' of the row, ie., not harmonic musics.

so I do have an ideology when I see this that I was trying to make a detailed argument for rather than simply state as I tend to do.

JarJar's effort is impressive to me, to come up with something to show *it isn't impossible* but tbh it further
highlights the problem, *it isn't so feasible*. IME you may as well do C-Bb as a vamp in the bass as opposed to anything that busy.

[jancivil]

determine what sound and feel your after then ,create a progression that inhibits that feel.

while my guess is 'inhibits' is a typo and you wanted 'inhabits', the truth of it is that a chord progression over such a scale serves more to inhibit than inhabit.

ie., it would be colorful as a scale over one chord, to get exotic spices over a moment, or it's *modal* and you stay out its way. Which again is really where these 'exotic' constructions derive from.

[jancivil]

It's not a path for people who don't feel a real natural need to go that way- you have to rebuild everthing, alone.

and more or less in the dark.

I'm so glad we're on the same page here!

[Samb]

I don't know a lot of music theory, but I've enjoyed reading this thread and learnt some interesting stuff, whatever Harry_HH says. My only contribution is to say, in response to this:

There's one little similar scale, I think it's "arabian major" (or so, I never went far away from the 5 basic scales typical for most western music). Apart from it not sounding all too great on tempered instruments...

Are you sure?

[JumpingJackFlash]

There's one little similar scale, I think it's "arabian major" (or so, I never went far away from the 5 basic scales typical for most western music). Apart from it not sounding all too great on tempered instruments, in C it goes like: C Db E F G Ab B

I believe this scale is known as The Major Gipsy Scale or The Double Harmonic Major.
(Apparently also known as Bhairav That, Mela Mayamalavagaula, Raga Paraj, Kalingada, Gaulipantu, Lalitapancamam, Byzantine Liturgical Chromatic, Hitzazkiar, Maqam Zengule, Hijaz Kar and Suzidil)!

[jancivil]

you know what, calling all of those things the same name is really missing a lot. while a thaat (Northern system) or a mela (Melakarta, Southern system of organization) is a scale and a parent to ragas, a Raga [eg., Paraj] is not however a mere scale.

its parent is Purvi thaat. now you could say "purvi raga" and be talking of the parent raga, same difference as 'thaat'. however more particularly, Raga Purvi is a specfic raga, formally, which is a template for improvisation that is more involved than a scale, in fact it is a composition. There are things you can and cannot do.

and NB: the purvi thaat has what in North India is called a 'shuddha' 7th degree, which on tonic C would be B natural. So. the idea of calling it the same as this received synthetic scale as given is not right.

[jancivil]

http://www.itcsra.org/sra_raga/sra_raga ... raga_id=16

according to the Agra Gharana (school):
Komal Rishabh, Komal Dhaivat, Tivra & Shuddha Madhyam, all other notes are Shuddha.

D Eb F# G G# A Bb C#, in fact.

Her Shadja, tonic, is F#:
F# G A# B B# C# D E#.
(C Db E F F# G Ab B, on C)

uttaraanga pradhaana raaga [the development and the movement are mainly in the area - P d N S, with melodic emphasis in the vicinity of the tara shadaj (higher octave occurrence of the tonic). the 'cadence' here, emphasized, note the lick at the end.



RESPECT^


EDIT: information applied to the practice demonstrated in that perforance.

[jancivil]

there are going to be different opinions about what to do from school to school.

here is an overview of Purvi, 'Poorvi'."Poorvi is a raaganga, a raaga and a thaat. The Poorvi thaat is coincident with the 51st Carnatic melakarta Kamavardhin..."

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit03182002/musicarts.asp


Raga Paraj.
Raaga Paraj. This is an uttaraanga pradhaana raaga [the development and the movement are mainly in the area - P d N S, with melodic emphasis in the vicinity of the tara shadaj (higher octave occurrence of the tonic). In the poorvaanga [lower tetrachord] there are two madhyams, like Poorvi; the distinction lies in the ucchaarana (articulation) and chalan (development). The uttaraanga (upper tetrachord) has a superficial resemblance to Basant that may confuse the casual ear but not that of an initiate. The melodic trajectory in Paraj hews to the Kalingada line while retaining its Poorvi-thaat swaras. Oftentimes, the two are combined into "Paraj-Kalingada." Let us develop the raaga heuristically:

P, Pd Pd mP, (m)G M G, m G r S
The intonation of the shuddha madhyam-laden phrase is direct without intermediary kaans (graces, turns) (cf [Raaga] Poorvi). The Kalingada chalan (development) can be retrieved from the above by replacing m with M. Sometimes an explicit G M P M G is also taken.

md md N, N S" N d S" N
Again, a likeness of [Raaga] Kalingada obtains (there we have only the shuddha madhyam and Pd replacing md). The elongation of N in S" N d S" N is a Paraj signpost.

S" N d P, G m d S" N, N S"r" S"r" N S" N d S" N
The dhaivat is rendered durbal (weaker than) throughout.

Paraj is a chanchal prakriti (*happening*, forward thrust, action) raaga. Additionally, the recommended Arohi locus forgoes the rishab, as in N' S G m d N. EDIT, with translations of some Sanskrit terms.

you might now see why it is inadvisable to reduce to a scale such as in the West.

[jancivil]

I believe this scale is also known as Bhairav That

nowhere near it: C Db E F G Ab B

[JumpingJackFlash]

There's one little similar scale, I think it's "arabian major" (or so, I never went far away from the 5 basic scales typical for most western music). Apart from it not sounding all too great on tempered instruments, in C it goes like: C Db E F G Ab B

I believe this scale is known as The Major Gipsy Scale or The Double Harmonic Major.
(Apparently also known as Bhairav That, Mela Mayamalavagaula, Raga Paraj, Kalingada, Gaulipantu, Lalitapancamam, Byzantine Liturgical Chromatic, Hitzazkiar, Maqam Zengule, Hijaz Kar and Suzidil)!

nowhere near it: C Db E F G Ab B

I was talking about the scale that Sascha mentioned, not the one from the OP. I do not claim to have any great knowledge of Indian systems, hence the word "apparently" in my post.

[haartbrejker]

You almost scared me away hehe, I didn't think this topic was going to have this many involved:)
But for me that don't know so much music theory Its seems to be very difficult.

I have beens searching for some music theory websites this is what I've been found. Do you know if this sites can help me out with chords and scales?

http://www.scales-chords.com/scalefinder.php

http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/vpc/piano_chords.htm

http://electricguitarchords.net/?page_id=22

http://www.palojono.com/dev/chord_progr ... erator.php

[Aroused by JarJar]

You almost scared me away hehe, I didn't think this topic was going to have this many involved:)
But for me that don't know so much music theory Its seems to be very difficult.

I have beens searching for some music theory websites this is what I've been found. Do you know if this sites can help me out with chords and scales?

http://www.scales-chords.com/scalefinder.php

http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/vpc/piano_chords.htm

http://electricguitarchords.net/?page_id=22

http://www.palojono.com/dev/chord_progr ... erator.php

There are many sites like these that will show you scales and chords. They are fine for finding the kind of stuff that ordinarily your friends would show you, major and minor scales and their triads, for example.

The problem is that all these sites, as far as I have seen, treat music like it is some kind of combinatorics. If you play the white keys at random, that is not C major. Even if you play a C drone in the bass, it will not be C major. Even if you play all the triads, it will not be C major.

In order to be C major, the G must be the dominant, the B the leading tone, and so on. And these terms are not just names, they are descriptions of how the notes act within C major. Of course G can act like something other than the dominant- but then it won't be C major.

If you learn just the most simple basics of the actions, you'll be years ahead of many people who "know tons of scales and chords".

"C major" can include Db, Eb, F#, G# and A#, for example. In rock and pop, not only jazz and classical This is obviously not something you can learn from just the "notes of the C major scale". If you learn the nature of the actions, then these things are very easy to understand and use.

And it is the actions that make the stuff that triggers emotions.

Could you post the melody you were referring to in the first post? Then we could see what the notes are doing, not just what they are.

As it is, we can only look at the material of the scale and point out actions that are possible, and actions that are not possible. This tells us a lot, but what possibilities are important to you?. For example, a lot of people get the feeling that music is "dark" if it does not have a very clear tonal center. As we've been explaining, if you are using chords, and not playing over a drone, it is far from easy to both use this entire scale and maintain a clear tonal center, not with the root you have given (C). This is because the possible actions which are used in Western music to establish a tonal center are simply not possible in this scale.

Maybe you don't care about this, though. That would be cool. You could do klezmer house with G as your tonic, too.

In the meantime Sascha Franck already explained how chords are usually formed in a scale. Maybe that's all you're really after.