KVR Audio

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:21 pm

robojam wrote:
vurt wrote:humans like to think chaos can be ordered.
and get far too stressed when things don't fit into nice neat little boxes with clear labels on them

dudes, don't be dissin' intelligent design

it's intellimagent

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:28 pm

debra1rlo wrote:
robojam wrote:
vurt wrote:humans like to think chaos can be ordered.
and get far too stressed when things don't fit into nice neat little boxes with clear labels on them
dudes, don't be dissin' intelligent design

it's intellimagent

Jeebus had OCD for sure.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:41 pm

his fixation with hoes and wine is something to behold!

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:46 pm

nix808 wrote:his fixation with hoes and wine is something to behold!

debra1rlo · Post by **debra1rlo** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:46 pm

nix808 wrote:his fixation with hoes and wine is something to behold!

and practically invented bling when he dragged around that giant cross

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:52 pm

You've done him proud with ur serialized display Vurt.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:55 pm

debra1rlo wrote:
nix808 wrote:his fixation with hoes and wine is something to behold!
and practically invented bling when he dragged around that giant cross

... surfing too!

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:01 pm

Robin from www.rs-met.com wrote:
Echoes in the Attic wrote:It is simply mathematical ratios. The intervals that we know of in western culture come from these well known ratios and the discovery that we seem to enjoy them. For example an octave difference is a doubling of the frequency, so the ratio is 2:1, a very simple ratio. The more simple, the more "right" they sound together, or consonant. Octaves always fit with each other as they double the frequencies, so we know of them as the same notes, higher or lower on our scales. A perfect fifth (7 semi-tones) is a ratio of 3:2, so this sounds very fitting to us as well, a major third (4 semi-tones) is 5:4, a major second (2 semi-tones) is 9:8 etc. When you start to get into ratios that do not make use of these simple ratios, our brains see it as dissonant and not so nice.

So we tend to like these mathematically rounded ratios, it somehow appeals to our brains.
that's half of the story.

we perceive simple ratios as more consonant only because our typical western instruments have partials that follow (approximately) a harmonic series - i.e. the frequencies are integer multiples of some fundamental. this leads to the fact that simple ratios between two tones (each with its own harmonic series) produce less beating between partials than with more complex frequency-ratios. in other cultures - where other instruments (like percussions, with non-harmonic partials) dominate, other scales are used. there's interaction between timbre and scale. with a properly chosen timbre, you can make even the octave sound dissonant - or whatever interval of your choice consonant. see here:

http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/consemi.html

fascinating stuff. i'd say, nothing short of some grand unifying theory for consonance.

I agree and interesting indeed. However the question wasn't what makes consonance or dissonance or what makes sound pleasing to us, that was just some points that I brought up in proposing why these scales came to be in the first place, which I took to be the question.

I do find the question of "why do we find certain timbres or musical intervals to be pleasing?" to be one of those "what is the meaning of life?" type questions, difficult to answer to say the least. However I don't find the question of "why do we have scales?" to be quite so deep. That's more like asking where certain words or tools came from. The cultures from which these scales arose found that certain combinations of frequencies sound pleasing, or elicited some kind of emotional response (don't forget that even certain intervals were banned in certain times, like the evil augmented 4th in renaissance music). The physical tools they had at the time such as stringed instruments were also able to be tuned in such a way that they co9uld hit many of these pleasing frequencies close enough when an octave (doubled frequency, no beating) was divided up into equally spaced divisions (equal temperament), or frequencies that seemed to want to move to them.

So my little explanations may be only part of the story, but I think for someone who genuinely may not know or have thought about the mathematical relationships between the notes of these scales, it could still be informative. I remember the first time I learned about the ratios of many of the most common chord notes, I was pretty amazed.

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:05 pm

debra1rlo wrote:
nix808 wrote:his fixation with hoes and wine is something to behold!
and practically invented bling when he dragged around that giant cross

VariKusBrainZ · Post by **VariKusBrainZ** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:08 pm

This thread is a chuckle

Hoe jokes never get old

Unlike religion which any civilised culture would have put on the back bench at least 100 years ago

I still dont understand how christians (and other religions) can be so blind to the fact their religion is an amalgamation of pagan and egyptian beliefs based on the zodiac and other cosmic cycles and there is no historical record of a Jesus Christ, besides the biblical fictions, the first of which was written several hundred years after his supposed death.

Damn, I think I brought the tone down

Back on topic

Whereas the use of discrete pitch intervals is characteristic of most musical traditions, the size of the intervals and the way in which they are used is culturally specific. Differences arise because of a link between the tonal characteristics of a culture's music and its speech.

Echoes in the Attic · Post by **Echoes in the Attic** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:12 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote: Most practical music though does not use all these mathematically pure ratios. In equal temperament for example, according to you, we should perceive major thirds as highly dissonant!

Sure, but it's so close to 5:4 that our brains would perceive it basically as such wouldn't you say? I detune synth oscillators because I like the sound, and a guitar can still sound good to us slightly detuned on some strings but we can still enjoy those intervals as if they were perfect. Which leads to another point however which is that although we gravitate to these pure ratios, I think we enjoy imperfection from them as well, but that gets into a whole other story.

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:15 pm

for some reason frequency ratios are pleasing or displeasing.
hmm

VariKusBrainZ · Post by **VariKusBrainZ** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:23 pm

nix808 wrote:for some reason frequency ratios are pleasing or displeasing.
hmm

I agree

nix808 · Post by **nix808** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:38 pm

We can talk about religion in Hyde Park I guess,
I like that one-
'treat thy neighbour as oneself' or somesuch
Koran has too.
Science has all the percievable really,
spirit is not percievable.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:18 pm

That's because it doesn't exist.

Anyway.
What makes something musically pleasing to us is mostly a matter of our listening environment as we develop. There is music that offends me as it was/is not a part of my culture. I'm sure there are other cultures where my music is less then palatable to them.

Just as there are fashion statements that disgust me but others find visually satisfying.

We have scales but why??