Entry level Orchestral VST

[kilohertz]

I'm in VST business since 1999 year and I've learned one, golden rule:
THE LESS IS MORE !

Nowadays, many people just collecting VSTs like cars, books, music etc. In the past we had a few quality vst instruments/effects/sequencers and it was great (I know how paradoxically it sounds at first but belive me - it was great). Now there are thousands of them and many of you could quickly feel lost. Too many choices, definitely

So at first please take my advice into account and don't be plugins collector. Try to have minimal quantity of them. You will quickly realize how your composing / recording process improve and speed up. Get one drum plugin, one piano plugin, one guitar plugin, one or two synth plugins. Not dozens of them...

Now about orchestral plugins/libraries... EWQLSO, VSL, Cinesamples, Philharmonik, Garritan and many others... What you should buy? I always smile when someone say "(...) but I love to have many orchestral plugins/libs becasue I can layer them to get big sound". Sure, libraries are never perfect but if you buy one and master it, it will give you more than having arsenal of them. Remember - you are primary composer/musician, secondary computer/sound engineer and not inversely. Additionaly, even the best computer orchestra will sound poor in comparision with average recording of real orchestra, recorded in studio with Decca and spot mics.

The best libraries to me are those that cover all basic orchestral instruments/articulations with samples recorded dry (without reverb tail in samples) (like Garritan, VSL). You could easily tweak them and later put into any room with IR reverb like Altiverb.

In the past, I bought and used Garritan Personal Orchestra. Then I switched to VSL Orchestral Cube (GIGA edition which in the end I converted and programmend inside Kontakt sampler like old, good GPO). In 2007-2008 I also worked in the studio with EWQLSO Platinum. And you know what? If you buy/have Garritan or Miroslav or VSL or EWQL, you won't need to buy next orchestral product in lightyears from now Each new library/plugin is different and will cost extra time to learn/master it. Instead of doing this, you better save time and compose next orchestral cue with soft that you already have. We have 2016 and after so many years in business I still prefer to work at home with Garritan even if a sound of it is a bit "dated" (like maybe many of you would say).

If something works for years, don't fix it. It's another very smart rule. Did Mozart complain about timbre and quality of an orchestra? Yes, he did. But... the emperor gave him one and he must lived with it

People are always very excited when new product / sample library appears on the music market. If someone would tell me that with Cinesamples or Albion or Symphobia etc. he (or she) could compose better sounding tracks than made with VSL / EWQL or even Garritan, Miroslav etc., I will just smile OK, it will sound "bigger" and modern out of the box but... for average listener (not musician like all of us being on such forums) the key is the music and not the timbre.

Good lib + very good composer + great orchestration = ear's catching track.
The best, multi GB lib + bad composer + terrible orchestration = well... ear's cutting track.

So in the end, if you have a little in your pocket, buy Garritan Personal Orchestra or Miroslav Philharmonik, larn it, master and... live with this lib for a long time. Maybe one day in a future you could work with real orchestra and re-record your compositions? If you on the other side have money, buy one of big libraries like VSL or EWQLSO and I bet you won't ever be disappointed.

Last but not least...

It's subjective view but IMHO with Symphobia and Albion series we have turned into wrong way. It's cool to play and fun with them but from professional point of view these libs are just another toys in the synth's garden. They give good ensembles and just fresh timbres but never let compose classical music or compose in classical way, what is a big limitation. You won't have this limitation with products like VSL / EWQLSO / Garritan / Miroslav / Kirk Hunter libs...

Well, hope it helps, take care!

[bill45]

VEP pro is supposed tobe more efficient when you run it inside the sequencer as well.
Gotta check this out.

[bigcat1969]

I found a little midi of the Four Seasons and dropped various string sustains into it. The LDK/Sonatina is free, Sampletank 3 uses the older Miroslav sampes, Symphony Strings 2 is esoundz, then the sounds that ship with Kontakt, Session Strings Pro though that doesn't have solo instruments, then Kirk Hunter with the biggest divisions behind the solo instruments and then with chamber sections. This is just out of the box and all of them can be made to sound better in a few minutes with your mad skillz and say the proper articulations and reverb.

https://soundcloud.com/joe-stevens-16/s ... -libraries

A couple brass experiments...
https://soundcloud.com/joe-stevens-16/sets/brass-stuff

[lolilol1975]

Thanks very much.

The worst is a tie between Sonatina and Symphony Strings 2. Sonatina not only sounds almost like a synthesizer, for some reason, the sampler doesn't play the correct notes starting at 0:50. Maybe a bug in the sampler, but basically unusable.
In Symphony Strings 2 you're left wondering why there is an accordeon in the middle of the orchestra. Just horrible (unless you're writing an accordeon concerto). Same with Sampletank 3.

Kontakt Factory starts to sound vaguely like violins, - even the solo instruments -, and is probably usable for mockups if you don't mind robotic renditions for lack of a decent legato. I think it sounds slightly better than the Legacy version.

Session strings Pro sounds a tad better than the previous ones, but the included reverb tends to drown articulations in the orchestral molasses.

To me the best of the bunch is the Kirk Hunter Big, and then the Kirk Hunter Chamber. These libraries, I had never heard of before. They sound almost convincing for this Vivaldi concerto, although the solo instruments sound a harsh like a saw, but with a little work and reverb, I believe they could definitely be used for classical orchestral mockups.

Nice find, this Kirk Hunter.

"DIAMOND SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA

At over 65GB, Diamond is a very large full-orchestral package. Simply put, Diamond combines Ruby with Emerald, so it is like getting 2 complete orchestras in one package. For the price, you will not find a better orchestral sample library anywhere."

If it's the same sort of sound you get, at $150 it's probably a good deal.

[kbaccki]

To me the best of the bunch is the Kirk Hunter Big, and then the Kirk Hunter Chamber. These libraries, I had never heard of before. They sound almost convincing for this Vivaldi concerto, although the solo instruments sound a harsh like a saw, but with a little work and reverb, I believe they could definitely be used for classical orchestral mockups.

Re solo instrument tone... that's consistent with many an opinion over the years. I think it's worth listening to as many of the demos as possible (there are a bunch on the site if you dig). KH's stuff mostly requires full kontakt... except for pop/rock strings and the upcoming ensembles product, both of which also run on kontakt player.

For an overall library, Diamond might be a good entry level place to start. Or if the primary focus is good strings + serviceable brass, winds, etc you could go with a hybrid... like spotlight strings + kontakt factory or something. Bang for buck, IMO KH stuff is up there. He also has frequent sales, so you can get a decent strings library for real cheap.

I think for anybody who has kontakt it's really hard to not recommend that as ultimately the way to go, primarily because of the wealth of library options out there. A lot of it is really fantastic.

The problem with kontakt is the full retail price, which is like $400 US. You can get some %'s knocked off at a place like JRR or AudioDeluxe, but the best route is cheap kontakt player lib + kontakt crossgrade when it goes on 50% off sale. For player lib you can register Sennheiser's DrumMic'a, which is a freebie designed to promote senn mics, and qualifies for full kontakt crossgrade.

The registration is in german, so google translate is your friend, if needed...

http://de-de.sennheiser.com/drummica

[bigcat1969]

Yeah I was kinda trying to point out that with some entry level things, you might as well go free. They are all pretty bad at that level. Not sure why I screwed up the Sonatina, that's embarrassing, but you get the idea of the sound as entry level, so why pay for it.

The Session Strings was probably a mistake since it doesn't have solo instruments.

I'm impressed by Kirk Hunter though you can see in the thread that others aren't, I think I got it for $100 or so on a group buy type sale, maybe less. Yeah those were different patches from the Diamond Orchestra. It has Symphonic, Concert, Chamber, Studio and Solo strings and brass. The woodwinds are weaker.

The best way to Kontakt if you can wait is the DrumMic'a combined with the summer upgrade sale and that is about $125 I think.
With time and luck you can get full Kontakt and Hunter Diamond for under $250.

[lolilol1975]

What is the difference between Kontakt Player and Kontakt Expensive Edition, apart from the libraries of samples ?
It sucks that you have to own the Expensive Edition to play 3rd party samples.

[bigcat1969]

Kontakt Player will play its own tiny instrument library and instruments created by Native Instruments or 3rd party instruments that have been licensed with Native Instruments for a per sale fee. It will play any instrument for 15 minutes.

Kontakt Expensive Edition (I like that) will play any Kontakt instrument including those that have not been licensed and comes with a somewhat aging factory library that has about every instrument type known to mankind. It also allows the user to edit instruments and scripts (that aren't locked) and import other instrument formats into Kontakt. KVR users also get ask technical questions that will be answered with insane competence by Evil Dragon (this is an undocumented feature).

[kbaccki]

Kontakt Player will play its own tiny instrument library and instruments created by Native Instruments or 3rd party instruments that have been licensed with Native Instruments for a per sale fee. It will play any instrument for 15 minutes.

Just to clarify: Kontakt-licensed libs (eg a lib packaged and encrypted to play w/in kontakt player) can be used for any amount of time in either player or loaded into full. Non-licensed kontent... er content... (eg a zip file with WAVs and a NKI) can be used for any amount of time in full, or used for 15 min at a time in player. In the latter case, player is basically in kontakt demo mode, where u have access to edit features etc as well.

Kontakt player can be downloaded for free, and I THINK comes with a small 200MB or so library? Kontakt full comes with it's own ~45GB factory library.

The reason why some libs are licensed to run in kontakt player, and others not, is because NI charges a fee to package your lib to run in player... that obviously has an impact on pricing of libraries, may not be feasible for small devs, etc.

Kontakt full at $400 full retail price IS pricey, but one can get the full monty for as little as $125 US during yearly sale, which is dirt cheap relative to the world of options it opens up.

[jancivil]

LESS IS MORE !

don't be plugins collector. Sure, libraries are never perfect but if you buy one and master it, it will give you more than having arsenal of them. Remember - you are primary composer/musician, secondary computer/sound engineer and not inversely. Additionaly, even the best computer orchestra will sound poor in comparision with average recording of real orchestra, recorded in studio with Decca and spot mics.

That doesn't really work for me. I'm no collector, can't afford it, it isn't how I am. Last time I did strings (twice in one compo, different) I took all day trying various strings on for size, and def. the second instance was a compromise. Both were totally nothing parts. These were several popular libraries at another studio. Most of what I kept are on my system. If I had less choices this amounts to less choices. This has nothing to do with being a sound engineer, it's orchestration. IIRC this thread has seen the distinction between Hollywood-type and classical type. If you're doing chamber-type, your 14-vlns section is meaningless. The character of CineStrings is quite unlike Spitfire. This is both an orchestration decision and a mixing problem. Within VSL, Appassionata is quite unlike their main deal, and Dimension is its own thing. I don't need a dichotomy between mixing and orchestration anyway. I make decisions early I'm going to live with so as to have fewer issues in the end.

I needed a strong attack, a static sus., and a certain release characteristic for this first, kind of stupid bit for celli and bassi. Two or three of the fancier libs (not VSL) I wasted an afternoon with dicking around with Round Robin, meaning too unpredictable (or the attack etc was too weak). I never even got close; I shaped the part in the audio editor after printing a very plain result (of EWQLSO Silver/Kontakt). It's good that I have that, I'm not an audio professional but I consider this area to be an important part of the toolkit. The other instance was Session Strings mixed with VSL Appassionata (the lite v. comes with VE Pro). This doesn't even look good on paper afaic, but one balanced the other. Session is not going to see very much use here but it absolutely suited the part better than a classical or romantic type of approach.

Same compo, I used I think 4 different libs for low brass. I used two different alto flutes in the thing. I got kinda close to my ideal in the end.

[jancivil]

VEP pro is supposed tobe more efficient when you run it inside the sequencer as well.
Gotta check this out.

To the sequencer, VE Pro is technically an instrument plugin but it doesn't run any instrument in the sequencer. You connect to it via instantiation of its server; there is just the one way to run it. Its audio comes back to the seq. host in instrument channels. (Now, it has Audio Input where audio channels or instrument channels in the seq. host may be sent to input channels in an instance of it, and here it is actually an external device, even as its connection is instrument plugin. So printing that must be in realtime.)

[bill45]

Ok,In cubase I would insert VEpro in a vsti slot in the vsti instrument rack.
Then, I would open VEP and insert kontakt.Kontakt would take less cpu,
than it would if I inserted it in the vsti rack.

[bill45]

jancivil is right .Get different libraries if you can.

[jancivil]

Ok,In cubase I would insert VEpro in a vsti slot in the vsti instrument rack.
Then, I would open VEP and insert kontakt.Kontakt would take less cpu,
than it would if I inserted it in the vsti rack.

Yes, Kontakt is now not competing for Cubase's priority, it's working in the different process.

[kilohertz]

@janvicil

Well, you see... I understand and respect your opinion. I know how painful it is if you want to find "that sound" and... with each second your frustration rises because "that sound" is still far away. But there just starts all madness. You at first buy the next plugin/library but... it also isn't perfect so again next library is on the sight. All start to sound "not bad" but... "hey, my PC/MAC is restarting so what the hell is wrong with it"? Next on the list is new computer or more RAM, bigger HD etc..

I repeat... Get one library that your current computer can handle and live with it. For me this is the only option, no matter what library I would compose with. With proper knowledge and manual you can make each lib to shine.

Don't focus on one instrument/articulation and how good/bad it sounds. Focus on full orchestra, composition, orchestration, recording and mixing it. "Sfz" art. is bad? Put staccato sample, play it with sustain and than quickly lower volume of sustain articulation. Round robin sounds bad? Switch it off. My Kurzweil K2600 single layer string samples playing very fast sound far better than all those "magic" round robbins from many modern libs.

Do you really need to sound like London Orchestra? If you are pro, you will work with real set of musicians. If not It doesn't matter with wich virtual orchestra you will make your next soundtrack.

The key is simplicity and music itself.

Take care guys!