Blue notes

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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I feel I have to defend myself for keeping being misunderstood. Noone here is claiming "it's impossible to know anything" neither any of that extreme relativism mambo-jambo, it's exactly the opposite that I defend as anyone reading carefully what I've wrote should interpret.
So this group found that some of the tunings were probably done to create 'beating' on purpose.
What a rigorous scientific study would try to explain is WHY these tunings were made in such a way, what values shaped that decision and why it made any sense "to create beating on purpose" for that musical practice in that culture if that was the case and then test that hypothesis.
That's technically 'less stable'. It is probably supposed to be artistically less stable.
What a rigourous scientific study would try to explain is "less stable" for whom, when and where? Perhaps in that culture "creating beating" is perceived or associated with "more stable", we don't know yet. That's the kind of things one would try to understand with the musicological approach, and that's why ethno is such an important part of it that cannot be dismissed.

Again: music doesn't exist in a vacuum neither is an universal concept. It is historically constructed, socially mantained and individually experienced. As such one needs to understand the concepts, behaviours to understand the [sonic] results. Only then one can formulate hypothesis, test them and come up with theories to explain things. There are reasons for a gamelan to end up in Arizona in the first place!... One can know a lot of things about musical practices, but one must have the right questions first and then a solid methodology to address them and test the hypothesis.


«When the spectrum of a saron is combined with a harmonic tone, it generates a dissonance curve with minima near the steps of a pelog scale—the other essential scale in gamelan music.
Based on such observations, Sethares (2005) argued that musical instruments co-evolved with tuning systems and scales. Musical instruments that are played in combination with one another must be tuned in a way that supports their combination, and this approach to tuning gives rise to the scales that shape musical structure. Once a tuning system is established, a musical tradition can also support new instruments that have spectral properties consistent with that tuning system. This process of co-evolution explains why gamelan scales and their instrument timbres, which are so unique, are rarely combined with the scales of Western music.
In traditions that mainly employ instruments with harmonic spectra, the tuning systems that support the formation of consonant intervals are also compatible with pentatonic (six note) and heptatonic (seven note, diatonic) scales. According to some researchers and theorists, this correspondence explains why major and minor pentatonic and heptatonic scales are the most widely used scales in Western, Indian, Chinese, and Arabic music over the past several centuries (Gill & Purves, 2009; Sethares, 2005).
(....)
Because a high proportion of instruments produce periodic sounds, including the human voice, most scales permit intervals that have spectral properties that are similar to the harmonic series (and hence are low in dissonance [I'd ask: for whom?]). However, traditions such as Javanese gamelan music that use inharmonic instruments have very different scales. The slendro and pelog scales permit intervals that are not similar to the harmonic series but that are predictable from the spectral properties of the instruments used in that tradition.
(...)Relative changes in pitch are salient sources of information in both music and speech. Unlike speech, music focuses on a collection of discrete pitches. Simultaneous and sequential combinations of these pitches occur extensively in music and are highly meaningful. Simultaneous intervals differ in the level of consonance and dissonance they produce. Consonant intervals such as the octave and fifth have many partials in common, and those that are unique are seldom within a critical band and do not give rise to roughness. Sensory factors constrain preferences for musical intervals, but early preferences can also be modified by learning and enculturation (see also, Guernsey, 1928; McLachlan, 2011).
Sequential intervals are the basis for melody. Whereas simultaneous intervals are constrained by processes related to consonance, dissonance, and fusion, sequential intervals are subject to constraints of auditory streaming. Music generates significant interactions between these types of intervals: fusion between simultaneous intervals can be avoided by emphasizing horizontal structure, allowing listeners to perceive individual voices in polyphonic music and reducing any potential dissonance between concurrent tones.
Mechanisms underlying melody processing may be engaged for domains other than music, such as speech intonation. Indeed, the capacity to extract contour may be a general property of the auditory system. Whether interval perception has a special status in the auditory system remains unclear. Our perceptions of the pitch distances in intervals are susceptible to a wide range of extraneous influences, including timbre, pitch register, direction of pitch change, tonal context, and visual signals arising from performers. Intervals also vary in performance when variable-pitch instruments are used. Such changes depend on both the technical skills and the expressive intentions of performers. Expressive intonation is detectable but does not tend to alter the perceived interval category.
Scales enable precise distinctions between interval sizes. Trained and untrained listeners are highly sensitive to scales and can even sing an underlying scale after hearing just a few notes of music. During music listening, however, understanding of scales may be less important than mechanisms of statistical learning. Because scale development depends on instrument timbres, there is no one ideal scale or tuning system. For music that emphasizes instruments with harmonic spectra, scales tend to permit the formation of intervals such as the octave, fifth, and third—intervals also found in the harmonic spectra of periodic sounds. For music that emphasizes instruments with inharmonic spectra, scales permit other intervals that reflect those spectra. Nonetheless, most scales throughout history and across cultures are predictable from the harmonic series, reflecting the prevalence of harmonic spectra in musical instruments, including the human voice.» - William Forde Thompson, in Deutsch, Dianne, The Psychology of Music, 3rd Ed.

So this leaves us with a possible explanation and a question: does growing in cultures whose instruments reflect inharmonic spectra change the meaning of dissonance [roughness] and how this quality is perceived?
Play fair and square!

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Musicologo wrote:So this leaves us with a possible explanation and a question: does growing in cultures whose instruments reflect inharmonic spectra change the meaning of dissonance [roughness] and how this quality is perceived?
No, "dissonance" and "consonance" has a mathematical definition and there is no need for hand-waving nonsense or subjective definitions.

Does a tropical culture lead to changes in clothing and behavior well suited to warm climates? Are members of such a culture well suited to inhabiting polar regions?

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aciddose wrote: No, "dissonance" and "consonance" has a mathematical definition and there is no need for hand-waving nonsense or subjective definitions.

 
There are numerous definitions of dissonance and consonance because they are all historically constructed, socially mantained and individually experienced. You have to state the one you're using and referring the source. Just a perusal by the wikipedia article Dissonance shows numerous ones.
Any rigorous discussion that wants to address the concept has to define it first. So which one are you using? And you can't assume it's "universal", such a thing doesn't exist (as far I'm aware of, otherwise even the wikipedia article would refer it blatantly).
aciddose wrote: Does a tropical culture lead to changes in clothing and behavior well suited to warm climates? Are members of such a culture well suited to inhabiting polar regions?
Of course. Just look at the diversity in clothing around the world and different perceptions of temperature. How many times I've seen tropical friends freezing in long sleeves while other people are still wearing short sleeves?
Play fair and square!

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You clearly don't understand what I'm getting at. It doesn't matter if there are multiple subjective definitions of "dissonance", I've already explained the only objective definition.

I've posted in this thread and described the fact that any combination of notes in a chord can be computed as harmonics of a "hidden fundamental" and that the magnitude of these harmonics is what determines dissonance.

Your whole post breaks down to "do cultures with more dissonant music prefer more dissonant music?", which suddenly doesn't sound very smart at all.\

Regarding tropical vs. polar: this has reasons that are not subjective. The density of brown fat cells in the skin and various metabolic factors in the body are responsible for regulating body temperature. There are even genetic elements at play. The only subjective factor is when you get all caught up in nonsense about "how people feel about temperature", which is completely meaningless flaccid science.

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I think I got you (and others I've read in the forum), but those kind of premisses seem flawed, they just sound positivist or realist at their best, while at present I'm in a pragmatist/constructive empiricist frame of mind. Most of what people call "post-modernist" gibberish I believe they were referring to anti-realism which I do not agree as well.

So I think the issue boils down to these frames of thought described below and how to do science and theories with them. And as such, at present, I don't accept one "objective definition", neither ONE theory, neither ONE music, etc... those things are impossibilities. Nor do I buy the "nature over nurture" argument even in a causal deterministic frame of mind. Those frames of thought were abandoned after reading some Godel, Popper, Quantum physics I guess?... You can't apply in human sciences the same principles of hard sciences.

http://dbanach.com/course/mod/resource/ ... rue&id=116

Anti-Realism:
Metaphysical: (Richard Rorty)
There is no world apart from our experience. The idea of a noumenal world or a world of things in themselves apart from experience is nonsensical or is not a possibility we are capable of representing,

Epistemological: (Kant, Late Putnam)
We cannot have knowledge of reality as it exists independently of our point of view. Reality exists independent of us, but we can't know it as it really is.

Pragmatism: Charles Sanders Peirce (1839-1914), William James (1842-1910), John Dewey (1859-1952)
Truth (and meaning) are always relative to a particular practical context, to a set of practices and values. Truth is what works (in that particular practical context).

Constructive Empiricism: (Bas van Fraassen). Science does not describe reality as it is apart from us and our perceptions, nor is that its job. Its job is to describe the common appearances that normal average size objects have to normal human observers. There is a common perceptual world shared by all normal humans. Science aims at systematically describing these and constructing our theoretical understandings of the world from this base.

Internal Realism: (Peirce, Late Hilary Putnam)
Truth exists as an ideal towards which the scientific community progresses. Truth is not a relationship between our scientific activity and something else, but is what the ideal scientific community would progress towards under ideal scientific conditions. The basic unit of connection with the world is no longer the particular theory or paradigm, but the entire history of the scientific community.

Intuitive Realism: (Thomas Nagel)
There is an external world that outruns our ability to represent it in language. While a full expression of truth is impossible in language or scientific theory, there is a bedrock of non-linguistic intuitions that form a common sense to which all of our theories must conform.

Scientific Realism: (early Hilary Putnam, Paul and Patricia Churchland)
We can know reality as it exists apart from experience and current scientific theory comes close to doing so, forming a core that will be retained in all subsequent theories.


Which one are you? Unless you don't recognize where you're coming from and where I'm coming from communication will be impossible.
the magnitude of these harmonics is what determines dissonance.
All you're saying is something like harmonic x is more dissonant than y as long as x > y. But then: is more dissonant to whom? You claim this is universal? We've already seen this appears to be falsifiable in context of bulgarian women and gamelan (again, pragmatic mindset). IF all you're saying is that the definition is independent of perceptions (harmonic 130 is always more dissonant than 50 regardless of who perceives it), then it really has no use in real/pragmatic life. It's as absurd as saying 25Khz is a sound, but then if noone can hear it what use does it get from someone calling it a sound?
Play fair and square!

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Going back to op:
Is that sensation of blue notes and chords sounding wrong innate or just a cultural thing?
Clearly cultural as demonstrated by gamelan, Bulgarian women, the actual blues blue note, etc... If it was innate and the definition of "dissonance" based on magnitude of harmonics was universal we would have a world of singers in octaves, unissons, fourths and fifths which is not the case. Therefore more refined scientific pragmatic theories are needed that take into account cultural values to explain all the diversity found in the actual world.

Current evidence seems to point to the hypothesis that if you grow in a context of instruments with inarmonic partials and vocal singing with seconds or microtones you may actually find those chords with higher partials consonant and pleasant. Now this would need to be tested in context (which is not easy to do). I think if one just sees the percentage of tonal language native speakers that have also perfect pitch (4x higher than non-tonal language natives) and what Nuryl has been doing to Rick Beato's kid, our brain is way more "plastic" that some people think and how culture plays a major role in these subjects.
Play fair and square!

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All you're doing is going on and on posting loads of nonsense without adding anything useful to the discussion. I've described an exact way to mathematically define consonance based upon harmonic ratios. You can either prove or disprove my claims to add to the discussion.

All this hand-waving nonsense isn't adding anything of value at all because it isn't helping to explain anything. You're merely explaining your theory about why answering his question is impossible!

I've already told you that your theory is wrong. His question is answerable and I provided the math (fractions, eighth grade?) to do so.

His question was simple, and phrased as a statement of his observations asking for confirmation.

If I play a chord of notes "A,B,C,D" the result sounds more dissonant than a chord of the same notes with one transposed an octave lower ... "why is this?"
As I was playing around with pad chords, I noticed again how playing a certain chord sounds good or bad depending on whether or not one note of that chord is an octave or two lower or right within that hand, so to speak. For instance F-G#-C. Now, when I add the C# right next to that C, it sounds wrong, but if I add a C# an octave lower, it sounds very nice.

Is that mere physics, like waves and their frequencies getting in each others way? And when there is an octave of distance, that is no longer the case and my brain doesn't complain? :D

Is that sensation of blue notes and chords sounding wrong innate or just a cultural thing?
So he's asking whether there is a mathematical explanation for the effect or whether it is purely subjective. I would argue that yes, there is a mathematical reason and that the chord with the transposed note is mathematically less dissonant than the chord without.

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To provide a hard definition, we'll go with A5 = 440 Hz 12TET and we'll "fit" notes to the nearest integer fraction by rounding (>1/2 = round up, otherwise truncate.)

So the chords in question are:

F4, G#4, C5, C#5

and

C#4, F4, G#4, C5

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Musicologo wrote:
aciddose wrote:the magnitude of these harmonics is what determines dissonance.
All you're saying is something like harmonic x is more dissonant than y as long as x > y.
No, you are wrong. What I said is that given a chord mapped to harmonics (1 hidden), 65, 80, 92 vs. (1), 5, 9, 11, the chord with harmonics of greater peak magnitude (92 vs. 11) will be more dissonant.

Primes play a part here and I'm just tossing numbers out, but that's a whole lot more complex than just the general idea which is extremely simple.

An octave chord: 1, 2 will be the least dissonant compared to a fourth 1, 4, fifth 1, 5, seventh 1, 7 so or on which are increasingly dissonant. (It would be interesting to work out the harmonic results for nth chords as I'm fairly certain a fifth harmonic isn't the same as a fifth semitone.)

The details of how min/max magnitude of the notes in a chord modify a chord's "consonance" as a score are slightly more complex than simply the peak (max) magnitude harmonic of the chord, but I haven't invested the ten minutes of research effort required to go into greater ninth-grade detail level here.

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I should really just sit down and write the code to work out the math in a plug-in or something so anybody could play with it and have it display the harmonic ratios computed from the chords they play along with min/max/average/etc magnitude. While that would be interesting, it is a lot of work and I'm not really up for it just to prove the math is valid for people who can't see that intuitively at a glance.

The chords in question are:
0 = F4
0, 3, 7, 8
or
-4, 0, 3, 7,

+3 is 1.1892~, 2.486~ cents off 19/16.
+7 is 1.4983~, -1.955~ cents off 3/2.
+8 is 1.5874~, 1.302~ cents off 46/29.
-4 is 0.7937~, 1.302~ cents off 23/29.

Transforming from these fractions to harmonics is a bit more tricky, but the end result should be obvious. The result of transposing +8 down an octave (8 - 12 = -4) gives you a smaller fraction which when mixed with the others to produce harmonic ratios will add a lower harmonic rather than a higher harmonic, which will mean the peak magnitude of the harmonics will be lower except in the case that the resulting ratios force all harmonics to be higher. Since 46/29 can be divided by 2 to produce 23/29 without increasing the magnitude of the divisor the result of combining the fractions is likely to be lower magnitude.

Requires an eighth grade math textbook refresher on rules for fractions... obviously since combining the fractions requires multiplying them, any reduced or increased magnitude will reduce or increase the magnitude of the result.

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This is tiresome. You can't even read.
without adding anything useful to the discussion (...) You're merely explaining your theory about why answering his question is impossible!


False. If you read posts above I've answered the question and explained why it is mainly a cultural thing. The entire reasoning on all these posts backs that up. Question was answered and methodology for answering similar questions was laid out, stating what one needs and what one can't discard.
You can either prove or disprove my claims
I have already done that by providing counter-examples, like the bulgarian women. Your claims don't seem to hold. If you read below I'll provide one more.
What I said is that given a chord mapped to harmonics (1 hidden), 65, 80, 92 vs. (1), 5, 9, 11, the chord with harmonics of greater peak magnitude (92 vs. 11) will be more dissonant.
For whom? You never tell to whom things are more dissonant or not.

OP:
Is that sensation of blue notes and chords sounding
So he's asking whether there is a mathematical explanation for the effect or whether it is purely subjective.
See how you can't read and interpret? Howcome OP talking about SENSATION of chord sounding isn't subjective at all? You'd need to understand the cultural values of OP to answer the question in the first place. If OP was a bulgarian women or a Javanese Gamelan player the answer might be different. People don't exist in a vacuum, neither dissonance exists in a vacuum. If there are no hears, there is no music, there is no dissonance.
the chord with the transposed note is mathematically less dissonant than the chord without.


That is why this definition is useless. Anyone, like you said, can make up a concept and then with basic maths can understand your simplistic reasoning and claim "chord 1" has mathematical less complex partials than "chord 2", the problem is that this assertion doesn't say anything about perceiveness of consonante or dissonance in real life which is the crux of the question. An interval of a fourth was considered dissonant in organum practices in central europe around 14th century, while according to your mathematical definition that would not be the case since it's a chord with such basic partials. There you have another counter-example to your claims.

Dissonance implies "to whom, when and where"? And implies cultural context: historically constructed, socially mantained, individually experienced. I'll close my argumentation here since the question has now been answered and re-answered. If you still don't get it just re-read all these posts in a couple of years.
Play fair and square!

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For everyone. You subjective bullshit is wrong and has always been wrong. The consonance of a chord is a mathematical property, not a subjective one open to free interpretation based upon your nancy "feelings" on the matter.

Let's either talk about the math, or you should just keep your mouth shut.

The ancient Greeks understood this stuff thousands of years ago.

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Musicologo wrote:An interval of a fourth was considered dissonant in organum practices in central europe around 14th century, while according to your mathematical definition that would not be the case since it's a chord with such basic partials. There you have another counter-example to your claims.
You'd better double check your math there. If you want to try to disprove my statement you'll need to understand middle-school math that 13/14 year old kids should know.

For example "more dissonant" requires a comparison between two things. You can't simply "consider dissonant" a single chord, that is totally meaningless.

It is either more or less dissonant than a chord it is compared to. Using my definition you'll find that if you compare a fourth (meaning of "fourth" changes depending upon what you're referring to) to an octave, you'll find that it is more dissonant than an octave because nothing is more consonant than an octave. (There is nothing between 1st and 2nd harmonic.)

What you need to do to disprove my law is to find an example where an octave is considered globally (by large numbers of people) to be more dissonant than a "fourth", while a "fourth" or any other chord you choose is considered more consonant.

You won't find such a case because it is impossible. This is no different than trying to find someone who believes that 3 bananas are more than 4 bananas.

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For everyone. You subjective bullshit is wrong and has always been wrong.
QED. You can't read. You're still stuck in old scientific positivism which has been disproven over and over, and the way you answer is clear I'm talking to a teenager or someone who still thinks like one. Even the wikipedia article for consonance doesn't agree with your simplistic mindset. If it was that simple you didn't have such a large definition and you'd have consensus all around. I bet you also believe the sky is blue to everyone? Try to explain the Bulgarian women. Try to explain blue note, try to explain the Suya, try to explain microtunal practices and you'll see the loopholes in all those theories. If your theories were right, then all musical practices in the world would consist of homophonies because everyone would find them more consonant than anything else... You're stuck to "universal laws" and trying to find patterns for what is common, that's easy, all you need to do is to come up with concepts, quantify and measure and establish a norm, and then everything that doesn't conform is consider "outlier" or "sick". No. I'm a pragmatist. What we need is theories to explain the actual diversity found in all possible contexts including all outliers and be able to explain why they exist. I'm outta here.
Play fair and square!

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Why are you unable to focus on one simple counter-argument? It's because you have no valid counter-argument.

You need to disprove my law by showing a case in which the mathematical result does not reflect perceived consonance after statistical variation is accounted for.

My law states that given two chords the magnitude of the harmonic ratios of the two chords can be compared to determine their relative consonance.

So you need two chords where the harmonic ratios produce the opposite result expected to demonstrate that the magnitude of the harmonic ratios does not reflect the perceived consonance of the chord relative to another chord.

You can't do this with single chords or by bringing up unrelated nonsense about Bulgarians.

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