Ableton Live 4.0 Beta available to all! (at last)

[munchkin]

Hmmm...I wonder what would happen if/when EnergyXT gets PDC and it's used as a VSTi in Live 4?

Also how does Live offer gapless audio when it's rewired to Sonar which has full PDC?

I don't understand why gapless audio can't work with PDC. When a song begins in Sonar it calculates all the delays and compensates for them so that there is only a tiny delay (if anything) before the song begins. I can drag and drop midi and audio into Sonar 3 while it plays without any delay or stuttering and I'm using a UAD-1 and a Poco. Dragging and dropping audio files shouldn't affect these calculations because audio/midi files won't introduce any need to recalculate plugin delay I believe. Hasn't it already been calculated?

At the moment Live can cope with synths/FX/audio/midi being dragged and dropped while it plays which must result in some serious number crunching for a moment as it integrates the synths/FX/audio/midi into the rest of the song. I have faith in Ableton that they can find a way to incorporate PDC also.

[meister eder]

Also how does Live offer gapless audio when it's rewired to Sonar which has full PDC?

The answer is simple:
Live does not load any VST when running in rewire slave mode...

[Alan]

I don't understand why gapless audio can't work with PDC.

I'm not saying it can't,but so far it hasn't been done succsessfully.Sonar 3 isn't entirely gapless,and I imagine Live will have to compromize one way or the other as well.Of course all of us wan't it all.

[meister eder]

I'm not sure we'll ever see both in an all around app,but you never know.I agree with TToz, I think Live should stick to what is does best and not try and be an all around app because they have way too far to go until they dig themselves out of the half-assed category.

I agree with you in the sense that they shouldn't try to make Live a full blown DAW at all costs. Rather OMF support or a decent "bounce-all-single-tracks-at-once" feature would make it perfect to transfer the work from Live to a major DAW at a pint where that's needed.
If PDC however means that we can use VSTs in rewire slave mode, then I'm all for it as well.

[meister eder]

Of course all of us wan't it all.

No!

[nuffink]

PDC. It's the new aliasing maaaaaaaaaaan.

[meister eder]

PDC. It's the new aliasing maaaaaaaaaaan.

[Alan]

From the horses mouth http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m= ... age=3&key=

I believe it's a matter of priority: Ableton made gap-free performance their highest priority, and designed their engine around that. (This requirement is at odds with PDC, since the latter make the former much harder -- though not impossible -- to do.)SONAR 3 may not be totally gap-free, but it is a huge improvement on what we could do before.

[christianmusicmaker]

From the horses mouth http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m= ... age=3&key=

I believe it's a matter of priority: Ableton made gap-free performance their highest priority, and designed their engine around that. (This requirement is at odds with PDC, since the latter make the former much harder -- though not impossible -- to do.)SONAR 3 may not be totally gap-free, but it is a huge improvement on what we could do before.

Nice one Alan...

I get the feeling that unless you have a UAD card or really listen carefully to the timing and sync of yout tracks you may not initially notice it but a lack of PDC can and will affect yout tracks. It is a problem if you do not have PDC and use plugs in Live.

Live 4 is a great app but it cannot compete on all levels without PDC. I think Live 4 is the best rewire programme out there full stop.

If you stop using all other programmes Sonar, Cubase Logic and just use Live instead as many have said they will, then at some stage if you use Live long enough you will have to deal with PDC.

Yes there are many ways to use Live 4 (without plugs for instance )but as the only application in a virtual studio without PDC...no...rewire absolutely!

Even Ableton agree that PDC is very important indeed. I was told by them that it is a top priority now for Live 5...if it was not so important why have the developers clearly stated they will now look to implement it in Live 5?

It is very important *if* you use plugs in Live.

[nuffink]

No. It's only important if you use plugs which introduce an unacceptable latency.

[stale bread]

That's because having a glitch free gapless audio engine is more of a priority for Live.Nobody's been able to have both(PDC)simultaneously without some glitching.Sonar 3 comes the closest for gapless and full PDC(including Aux).I'm not sure we'll ever see both in an all around app,but you never know.I agree with TToz, I think Live should stick to what is does best and not try and be an all around app because they have way too far to go until they dig themselves out of the half-assed category.So instead of seeing the re-wire version improve,users will have to suffer with their growing pains.Maybe PDC doesn't appear important to some,but it sure as hell is to others who notice slight delays in various plugs,and even large delays and dropouts in plugs on the UAD/TC cards.Maybe they should maintain 2 versions because at the moment I don't see how their going to pull people away from their main apps with midi/PDC shortcomings,and whatever other growing pains.

no offense intended Alan but I think this post is so full of misgivings and really shows what the crux is with
the issue of the ableton Live program.

some points that I think are very important for this discussions sake:

1. Ableton/Live the co. is not trying to pull anybody
away from anything. if you go to Robert Henkes own site he states that he could use only live for production but that he likes to use alot of things and doesn't even want to only use Live, now that is pretty profound for a developer to say that about the application he co-created.

what is happening is that many many users of other programs, Logic, sonar, cubase, dp, and the like are
Leaving those programs on their own because they enjoy using Live that much. (its not for everybody) but for those people abandoning the traditional daws Live has been a godsend, which brings me to # 2

2. Live a half assed catagory?... that comment sounds
like fear talkin and really doesn't deserve a response it's just nonsense.

3. the last thing users of Ableton Live are doing is 'suffering', I'm not sure that you're even talking about the same program Alan because Live Users are having a ball with Live and obvioulsly enjoying it like they haven't in any other program.

4."dig themselves out of", man all I can humbly say is that you really have the wrong idea of the program
and the mindstate of the developers behind it, as well as it's overall appeal to people from every walk
of Daw application.[/quote]

[Alan]

[1. Ableton/Live the co. is not trying to pull anybody
away from anything.

I thought that was the whole point of competing with other apps with the new included features.

2. Live a half assed catagory?... that comment sounds
like fear talkin and really doesn't deserve a response it's just nonsense.

Without PDC and half baked midi I'd say it's still in the half-assed category as far as being an all in one app,but it's still great for what it does,so there's no fear since it's still a great re-wire companion.

3. the last thing users of Ableton Live are doing is 'suffering', I'm not sure that you're even talking about the same program Alan because Live Users are having a ball with Live and obvioulsly enjoying it like they haven't in any other program.

I didn't say the app wasn't fun or even ground breaking for what it does,but without PDC and serious midi I would suffer if I had to depend on it as my main app,at the moment I'm quite happy using it via re-wire.i think you need to read these posts more accurately and not so much from a fan perspective.You sound like your easy to please.

[munchkin]

Well of course we're interested in how SONAR users are using other apps such as Live. And we're also interested in hearing first hand about the new features from Live that we should ... ahem ... borrow ... in our products.

But seriously, if Live 4 doesn't have PDC, I'm surprised there's no uprising over on the Ableton forum to demand it. And if Live 4 doesn't need it, then why does SONAR, Pro Tools, Cubase, etc? How come Ableton gets off the hook on not having this pro feature?

My thoughts exactly. Why introduce VSTi and midi and then not ensure that everything plays in sync? Looking at the Live 4 bugs forum Ableton are doing their utmost to ensure all VST's work correctly in Live 4. So they are taking this issue seriously IMO. I recommend reading the thread at the cakewalk site (link given above) for reasons why PDC is important for all plugin users - not just those of us who use UAD-1 and Poco.

I believe that Ableton will solve this problem at some point. I hope it's sooner rather than later. Live 4 is a fantastic host - I never gave it much of a trial before but with the new beta's available to everyone I've bought it on the basis of trying the beta.

I think that Live 4 is going to attract a whole new set of users with different priorities - this is a result of Ableton introducing VSTi's and midi. Unfortunately, some long term users may feel unhappy if Live moves off in a different direction but this is Abletons decision and not caused by users asking for PDC. Perhaps we can have the best of both worlds gapless audio and full PDC in the near future.

[nuffink]

While we're at it I'd like a host that compensates for vst's that crash, look ugly and sound bad.
f**k it, if the host has to compensate for shit coding, and ancient hardware, it may as well go the whole hog.

[munchkin]

While we're at it I'd like a host that compensates for vst's that crash, look ugly and sound bad.
f**k it, if the host has to compensate for shit coding, and ancient hardware, it may as well go the whole hog.

Exactly! And while they're at it could they please code it to switch on my coffee machine in the morning. I don't ask for much do I?