KVR Audio

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:38 pm

I’m on a phone so not going to quote it all, but chroma makes good points. What makes a wave table a wave table is that you can define point A to point B. It will always be point A to point B. That might be a great way to look at it.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:48 pm

This is what I like about what I call a "good" wavetable synth.

Naturally, you have your start and end points of the wave itself. But that's pretty static in that the start is always the start and the end is always the end. Yes, you can, with some WT synths, play the wave in reverse, from end to beginning. But for the most part, the wave itself is relatively static within that context of going from one point to another.

What makes the WT interesting is the modulation options available on the wavetable. Serum has these in spades. That's what gives the WTs their character, IMO anyway. The more modulation options, the more character. Naturally, you can overdo it and end up with a lot of noise. But used with care, WT synths can simply do things that single waveform synths can't do.

And on the plus side, you can always load a single waveform into a WT synth and thus have the best of both worlds.

Of course you have the sound characteristics of each synth which is why you're never going to get Serum to sound like The Legend and vice versa.

That's why we don't just own one synth because nothing does it all, at least not well.

Again, IMO.

strovoknights · Post by **strovoknights** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:01 am

I love ANA2 and Rapid and Serum.
These are special

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 am

....annnnnd, we just descended into sell you shit thread.

layzer · Post by **layzer** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:14 am

Urs wrote:I don't like the term "morphing" for any kind of audio because it's utterly overused for all sorts of unrelated things. In imaging (e.g. video production), it refers to seamlessly transforming the outline of a two-dimensional shape from one form to another, while crossfading the embedded structure. It's inherently only spectacular in a shape where each coordinate on the outline can freely move in X and Y direction. This requires that multiple points can occupy a location on the X-axis. A waveform can't do latter. Hence only few can morph (e.g. PWM), most can just crossfade. A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).

the Wavestation is still one of my favorite
wave "morphing" synths

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:22 am

layzer wrote:
Urs wrote:I don't like the term "morphing" for any kind of audio because it's utterly overused for all sorts of unrelated things. In imaging (e.g. video production), it refers to seamlessly transforming the outline of a two-dimensional shape from one form to another, while crossfading the embedded structure. It's inherently only spectacular in a shape where each coordinate on the outline can freely move in X and Y direction. This requires that multiple points can occupy a location on the X-axis. A waveform can't do latter. Hence only few can morph (e.g. PWM), most can just crossfade. A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).
the Wavestation is still one of my favorite
wave "morphing" synths

Wave station came from Prophet VS BTW. Urs's post is one of those you gotta sit back and take in for a minute. It's not an obvious post.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:25 am

Urs wrote:I don't like the term "morphing" for any kind of audio because it's utterly overused for all sorts of unrelated things. In imaging (e.g. video production), it refers to seamlessly transforming the outline of a two-dimensional shape from one form to another, while crossfading the embedded structure. It's inherently only spectacular in a shape where each coordinate on the outline can freely move in X and Y direction. This requires that multiple points can occupy a location on the X-axis. A waveform can't do latter. Hence only few can morph (e.g. PWM), most can just crossfade. A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).

Urs, I've been grappling with this because you are trying to tell me something. Wouldn't X be the time, and Y be the amplitude? I'm not an expert and this might be over my head.

layzer · Post by **layzer** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:28 am

generaldiomedes wrote:Personally I would only call a synth a ‘wavetable synth’ these days if It could handle 256 waveforms per wavetable and cycle through them. Serum, Avenger, Rapid, Wavetable, etc.

personally, i think 256 is stretching it... 512 -1024 or even 2048 minimum

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 am

Dasheesh wrote:
Urs wrote:I don't like the term "morphing" for any kind of audio because it's utterly overused for all sorts of unrelated things. In imaging (e.g. video production), it refers to seamlessly transforming the outline of a two-dimensional shape from one form to another, while crossfading the embedded structure. It's inherently only spectacular in a shape where each coordinate on the outline can freely move in X and Y direction. This requires that multiple points can occupy a location on the X-axis. A waveform can't do latter. Hence only few can morph (e.g. PWM), most can just crossfade. A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).

Urs, I've been grappling with this because you are trying to tell me something. Wouldn't X be the time, and Y be the amplitude? I'm not an expert and this might be over my head.

Honestly I have no idea what is going on this post because I don't think Hive works in that manner LoL. I'm pretty sure it's Mip Mapped. I'm so confused right now. Dude keeps teasing me with something he is working on, but none of it is making any sense at this point ...hahahaha... I love it. Keeping me on my toes Urs!

Delta Sign · Post by **Delta Sign** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:10 am

One thing I love to do is mess with the readout on single cycle waveforms. Usually waveforms are read with a simple linear ramp, but messing with that ramp can give some interesting results. Like, bending the ramp by simply multiplying it by itself a bunch of times = instant PWM on any waveform. PWM like that used on a a (co)sine used as a phase modulation modulator sounds amazing.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:22 am

Delta Sign wrote:One thing I love to do is mess with the readout on single cycle waveforms. Usually waveforms are read with a simple linear ramp, but messing with that ramp can give some interesting results. Like, bending the ramp by simply multiplying it by itself a bunch of times = instant PWM on any waveform. PWM like that used on a a (co)sine used as a phase modulation modulator sounds amazing.

OK. I'm getting the picture. Mr. Urs was fascinated by Spire being able to assign an envelope stage to itself, even though Hive could do the same thing. I'm going to have to investigate this further.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:26 am

Delta Sign wrote:One thing I love to do is mess with the readout on single cycle waveforms. Usually waveforms are read with a simple linear ramp, but messing with that ramp can give some interesting results. Like, bending the ramp by simply multiplying it by itself a bunch of times = instant PWM on any waveform. PWM like that used on a a (co)sine used as a phase modulation modulator sounds amazing.

That's the definition of Phase Distortion. Casio back then only used cosine waveforms and linear phase segments, but really one can apply any function of phase to any waveform.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:30 am

Urs wrote:A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).

Might wanna check out PPG Infinite, because mr. Palm did exactly that with that synth, if I'm reading you correctly. Wavetables with inharmonic movement possible.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:32 am

Dasheesh wrote:Urs, I've been grappling with this because you are trying to tell me something. Wouldn't X be the time, and Y be the amplitude? I'm not an expert and this might be over my head.

No worries. I'm just keen on clear language, and the term "morphing" is often more related to marketing than to what it's actually doing. So much so that I'd rather avoid it because, everbody knows it's used to dress the ordinary in a fancy coat.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:35 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Urs wrote:A similar problem occurs in the time domain where the most interesting part of the spectrum is so sparse, real morphing would require inharmonic movements (i.e. not suited for most synths).
Might wanna check out PPG Infinite, because mr. Palm did exactly that with that synth, if I'm reading you correctly. Wavetables with inharmonic movement possible.

or Harmor, Alchemy.

I can do that too, but I think this particular feature is niche and totally not what the proponents of "more wavetables" ask for.

[addendum] Wolfgang Palms synth might be quite close to an acceptable use of the term. Funny enough, apparently it uses the synthesis principle I had originally planned to add to Hive, but which after some audio demos - and to my disgrunt - got binned by the crowd

Wavetable Synthesizers