Is there still such a thing like instrumentalist snobbery around?

[risome]

Hi (TLDR? Just answer the question in the title as you understand it ad hoc)

I was among the first electronic musicians rising in the light of synth-pop, krautrock, industrial (EBM) etc. that entered professional music schools in my small country in the late 1980s. At my school, I was actually the only electronic musician among 80 Debussy, Miles Davis, Coltrane or Chick Corea wannebees. I was sneezed at because at that time there was a huge gab between electronica and so called "real music". To be a "real musician" you had to be some degree of excellent on some instrument; electric or classical guitar, trumpet, saxophone, upright bass, piano or keyboard. I was none of the above. What I went to music school for was to learn to compose the music I wanted to compose, to control notes, to arrange, to harmonize, to master different styles. Sequencers and synths helped me to do just that.

I remember that nobody took me seriously at all but a friendly sax player. I was but a fake musician all the way through. And it did not help that I made the highest grades in composition exercises such as jazz harmonization and counterpoint. That made me even more pathetic, using my skills on stupid electronic music instead of real live music. However, the contempt could be mutual because on my side, I considered many of those "instrumentalists" nothing but self-obsessed masturbationists who turned their instruments into penis enlargements and litterally acted as if anyone else in a group was nothing but personal backing to their oh-so-fast-played improvisations. In my eyes, they lacked sense of wholeness, respect for other musical functions than their own, took composers for granted (all good music are already in "The Real Book" and the rest is derivation) and generally lacked sense of musical structure and order. As if playing as-wierd-as-possible scales in amazing tempi during improvisations was the real core of music.

We didn't talk much.

But these days I take it for granted that we have long passed this former division, now that everyone, may they be composer or instrumentalists, have access to cheap DAWS and easily can make their own home studios and compositions. But then again, I am not really sure. One characteristic of many instrumentalists on my school was that they actually hated music theory and composition class and most of all wished they could survive the whole study by using their ears and improvise.

So now I ask you, do you have any experience in this regard? are there still instrumentalist snobs around or have they become extinct?

Plz write about your take on it and enlighten me on the issue in modern times.

Thanks in advance

Oh there still around they just never finish anything usually. I believe they forget then entertaiment side of music and get caught up in the technicality of their chosen instrument. Widdly widdly yes very clever but wheres the song.

[herodotus]

What I was talking about.

[Russell Grand]

You do know, I am sure, that 'pleasant' is relative to the person listening.

Right?

Sure, but if someone likes what I dislike, I don't think much of them, anyway
Like many music critics, they seem to be obsessed with complexity rather than appeal. That's why their verdicts have often nothing to do with what most people like.

You are a silly man.

That's a nice way of putting it.

[zerocrossing]

I got out of music school just a few years ago. By and large, it's still a time-capsule.

I dared to use -- gasp!!! -- distortion on a sound. I was met with puzzled stares and questions on why I would want to use such ghastly sounds. "They're...part of modern culture?" Go figure.

The thing that gets me is that Jazz musicians are far worse with this crap than the classical musicians -- you'd think it would be the opposite, but nope. Jazz artists are comparatively boring and hyper-conservative, whereas classical musicians in my experience were much more open-minded...they at least have a tradition of trying to find new things and "advance the art form" (even if they cause them to die via over-intellectualizing). Jazzers are very keyed in on doing the same thing over and over again, amen alleluia, oral tradition for ya, don't deviate from the formula or Get Off the A-Train.

There was generally a complete lack of interest and understanding of electronics. Even a lot of the other composers were mostly disinterested. It was basically me and my teachers (great open-minded, intellectually curious bunch, I exclude them from all of the above criticisms) who had any interest in anything outside of the empty concert halls.

Similar to your story, I was head and shoulders above others when it came to my grasp of music theory, past and modern...to the annoyance of many (certainly not all) around me.

Thing is, I still love classical music above all, even more than the electronics (which will have to be pried from my dead hands). But it was clear to me that many of the musicians who were seeking to play that music were culturally illiterate of the modern world, or put too much stock in the words of "authority" figures and their values on culture, and I just can't tolerate it.

All that aside...

I'd argue that the general public still wants to see people physically perform music too. They want to see the fingers moving over a piano keyboard, not hovering sluggishly over a laptop. People admire visible effort. And I don't entirely disagree -- my criticism of many electronic musicians is their lack of understanding of basic musical concepts and their undeveloped physical connection and resulting intuition of music. Many would do themselves some good to take lessons for a bit and try to think like musicians rather than engineers.

But obviously, a balance needs to be had -- electronic music is a different animal and can be harmed by too slavish an attachment to the past. It's why I think it has overall been healthy for most electronic music to have developed among "amateurs" rather than the "learned". Example: EDM sound design is putting academic electronic art to shame. The pendulum of progress has swung to the public and away from schools -- little of cultural worth is happening in the academies in my estimation.

Don’t make the mistake that most electronic music musicians are any different. Outside of a small group of explorers, most just want to f around with an 808 and TB or maybe something exotic like a Virus.

[MadDogE134]

most of the music industry has always been full of arrogant c**ts. 'you can't swing a wombat without hitting one' lol i have always disliked arrogance but i seem to have become a bit of a snob in the last decade or so with loop splicers that think they actually make music and call themselves 'producers' lol in my day and age producers were the folks that put up the money and got the musicians together to make productions. but then again... 'gay' used to mean 'happy' and rainbows were beautiful things of nature lol sadly times have changed and not for the better in my opinion. the advent of loop splicing works not your own is akin to 'participation trophies' so folks that couldn't even hold a tune in a bucket could pretend to make 'music' and to think highly of themselves as 'artists' too lol but then again... people have ALWAYS been good at lying to themselves. cheers

[ATN69]

When I went to music academy and I dropped out the third year. I lost interest in music for a long while as a result of my experiences. Besides learning new things I expected it to be a fun experience where musicians get together and play music for the fun of it, helping each other to develop, etc. It was nothing like that.

Instead it was a constant battle and competition between students. Students and even teachers were very quick to rank everyone. As soon as someone saw a chance to push someone else down they took it. During ensable class students were divided into groups and it was like picking out the socker team, where the fat guy were always picked last. I was kind of average in the bunch in terms of skills but I had my fair share of BS. If a music school can be like that, what more in the real world?! I gave up music as a carrier as a result.

Now in my older age I can look back at that time and I realise that some of the "popular kids" actually were not that good musicians. They pulled themselves up by pushing others down and it made them look better than they actually were. I know a few students from that time who actually had some success with music as a carrier, and none of them were considered to be the best of the bunch in school.

[tapper mike]

Yeah, I'm one of those jazz instrumental snobs who believes that an audience wants to hear a song performed well for the sake of the song and doesn't like it when someone wants to crash the party and take the band down with them. I used to make okay money as a working musician a hired gun that got gigs because I was good and did what was required of me. If you want to be creative on your own dime, more power to you. But if you are taking everyone else's dime away from them because you lack self discipline go play with like minded and leave the professional work to the professionals.

[IncarnateX]

Wow tapper mike
I wonder if this argument is equal to that of the "drum machines take the jobs from real drummers"- campaign in the 80s? As to what people want: Does anyone knows how many gigs on average the Jazz virtuoso get compared to the average Dance producer? Just asking. But then again, if it turns out that people want more electronic produced dance music than Jazz, you can always argue it is because they have been brainwashed with bad taste and thus, the electronic producers end up as The Devil, no way how you put it. How convenient

And I don't recall many self-disciplined instrumentalists that showed the same discipline when it came to composition class and music theory compared to training scales on their beloved instrument for improvisation purposes (as stated in the OP). As if compositions and engagement in music theory don't require self-discipline

Far from all electronic producers use samples and construction kits, but then again how would you know? In the beginning of the 80s, some traditionalists completely missed the point of a sequencer and thought it made music on its own by touch of a button

I am jesting a little, but only a little. Here is a hug for you, my friend, for old times sake

Edit: And let us not forget that in the 1920s, it was actually Jazz music that was the work of The Devil. In some way it is like the young woman saying: I will never become as conservative and rigid as my mother and 20 years after, she is exactly that

[fmr]

That was around 1972 ... he's 70 now with less hair.

yes, that's the Roxy Music period, which is where he started. Actually, Eno said that if it wasn't for Roxy Music (where he fall almost by accident) he would not have a career in music.

[herodotus]

Wow tapper mike
I wonder if this argument is equal to that of the "drum machines take the jobs from real drummers"- campaign in the 80s? As to what people want: Does anyone knows how many gigs on average the Jazz virtuoso get compared to the average Dance producer? Just asking. But then again, if it turns out that people want more electronic produced dance music than Jazz, you can always argue it is because they have been brainwashed with bad taste and thus, the electronic producers end up as The Devil, no way how you put it. How convenient

And I don't recall many self-disciplined instrumentalists that showed the same discipline when it came to composition class and music theory compared to training scales on their beloved instrument for improvisation purposes (as stated in the OP). As if compositions and engagement in music theory don't require self-discipline

Far from all electronic producers use samples and construction kits, but then again how would you know? In the beginning of the 80s, some traditionalists completely missed the point of a sequencer and thought it made music on its own by touch of a button

I am jesting a little, but only a little. Here is a hug for you, my friend, for old times sake

Edit: And let us not forget that in the 1920s, it was actually Jazz music that was the work of The Devil. In some way it is like the young woman saying: I will never become as conservative and rigid as my mother and 20 years after, she is exactly that

I think what happened there is what always happens here, where people comment on something that is only tangentially related to the op.

In this case, it isn't about classifying different kinds of musicians in order of worthiness, but more about some band members not putting in the same effort as other band members. And I can certainly relate to that kind of frustration. A band only sounds as good as its laziest member.

Now watch, tapper mike will come along and tell me I was wrong about my interpretation.

[herodotus]

And drum machines did take the jobs of real drummers. That is how technology works. Automation puts factory laborers out of work every day.

I don't think that technology can be stopped, and I think it would be a bad thing if it could. In the long run, technology improves the lives of everyone. But in the short term it can be pretty brutal.

[sjm]

Of course there is snobbery, as anyone who plays in a band knows.

Guitarists are self-indulgent divas stuck up their own you know what.
Drummers have no sense of timing (they are invariably always late to practice), and only got the gig because every else already knew how to play a "real" instrument'.
Bassists, well, they are just the worst guitarist in the band, which is why they generally only get to play one string at a time.
And singers. OMG. When they aren't out diva-ing the guitarists, they have some god-awful idea about how the band should have an image and yadda yadda. They should just shut up when they aren't singing, and cut out all that nonsense waffling they feel obliged to do between songs ("It's so great to be here tonight yadda yadda").
You might ask, "what about keyboardists", but seriously, what self-respecting band needs a nerd whose mum sent them to music lessons as a kid?


Me, I play the one instrument to rule them all, which is why I get to be condescending:

[lfm]

For anybody with inferiority complex - the world is filled with snobs.
One way of handling feeling inferior is to become cocky - and the world looks at you as a snob.
So yes, there is a lot of snobbery going around....

I think in musical education the general rule have been to learn to play and perform on at least one instrument.
You thereby have the key to a lot of instruments and to arrange and stuff. Something to relate to.

Being electronic musician selecting piano is probably the most natural choice. It's such a good base to understanding it all, really - scales, modes, chord analysis, notation etc. No notation key signature - white keys only etc.

[fluffy_little_something]

You do know, I am sure, that 'pleasant' is relative to the person listening.

Right?

Sure, but if someone likes what I dislike, I don't think much of them, anyway
Like many music critics, they seem to be obsessed with complexity rather than appeal. That's why their verdicts have often nothing to do with what most people like.

You are a silly man.

Why?
Excellent musicians don't necessarily make appealing music. Sure, there is always a relatively small, elitist audience for them, but most people don't seem to care about great musicianship. Of course they do expect a certain level at live concerts, but even there the purpose of music is not to provide intellectual stimuli, but to entertain.

[fluffy_little_something]

writing off an entire group of people because they don't fit X arbitrary criteria is not criticism.

anyway, it's people WITHOUT self-confidence who do it the most. no self-confidence means they try to feel confidence by clawing away at other people to bring them down to 'lower than their own level' instead of being comfortable in themselves.

edit: "imagine your boss in his underwear" is not the same thing as what's happening here. no-one here has to be AFRAID of another group of people the way people can be afraid of a capricious or demeaning boss, so there's no need to "humanize them by making them funny" as a way to bring yourself back to reality.

although i guess you could say some of you might be afraid of losing your "musical legitimacy" to another group of musicians, which is really the reason for most snobbery anyway. but that's the thing, you don't NEED to be afraid—i might be making a sweeping generalization here, but most of this thread seems like an echo of the collected fear and xenophobia of different parts of the music community over the last couple centuries, lashing out ungrounded like arcs from an exposed wire.

The world is full of self-confident people who according to their capabilities and deeds shouldn't be self-confident. And vice versa.