Musical shortcuts - How far do you go without guilty conscience?

[vurt]

losing the musical vocabulary

I have not lost it,

i hope it never appeared i was suggesting you had "lost" it as in forgot it, i meant as in putting it behind you and going forward in to new territory.
maybe "leaving the vocabulary behind" would have been better.

but there was a very serious disclaimer on that post too

[jancivil]

Some people think
That if they go too far
They'll never get back
To where the rest of them are

I might be crazy
But there's one thing I know
You might be surprised
At what you find out when ya go

- Frank Zappa, A Token of My Extreme

[jancivil]

losing the musical vocabulary

I have not lost it,

i hope it never appeared i was suggesting you had "lost" it as in forgot it, i meant as in putting it behind you and going forward in to new territory.

I would suppose the universal <you> there anyway; but that clarifies it.
Originally it was the analogy of someone who had lost English, or so I would suppose in that it was characterized in terms of the necessity of a psych ward or somewhat.

I actually try to make gibberish sitting around by myself, just to form speech as rhythm and so forth, as I went into.

I personally can imagine losing the capacity to replicate the usual received impression of music such as popular music very well. I'm not there, but I can imagine it fading away in a type of psychological disassociative manner.

[ATS]

I'm getting some good results with Acid Pro but man it really doesn't feel so good using so many loops so makes me not want to go that route really.

[dellboy]

And, frankly, whether you have discussed this before is no concern of mine.

Then this must be the answer you seek.

[IncarnateX]

Nope, that answer does not apply to this thread, which was case specific and not formulated in universal “is-it-cheating” questions. I just asked for people’s personal experiences and attitudes for inspiration. They were inspiring and I found my answer on the former page, so all good.

[jancivil]

ps: the shaggs were the exception that proves the rule. that's a great album!

No it's the exemplar of the rule! It's godawful.
Zappa, btw said it was a great album. He went further than that but I don't have the quote. I think it's an ideological statement essentially.

i guess they where channelling foot foot, cats know.

I don't know what that means but it's making me giggle.

[vurt]

its not as random as it sounds, even if i was high

my pal foot foot, is a song on the shaggs album. foot foot was the families pet cat, i was jokingly implying the cat had controlled them as cats are wont to do!

looks like me and frank finally agree on something

[stonestreet]

The part of my post about the non-english-talking man is something that actually happened. I can not remember the particular details as I read it some 20 to 25 years ago. I recounted it because it seemed to me to have a parallel with the OP. I have been trying to remember the name of the psychiartrist I can only think of Roky Erickson but he would be the patient. I saw the patient as somebody who only referenced themselves.

I see languaging as a behaviour no different to pointing to the moon. Languaging can be seen as a co-ordination of actions and as the example given the non-english-taking man the co-ordinations need to be consensual. So there are consensual co-odinations of consenual co-ordinations of behaviour. It is a social thing a relation between self and other.

We are no island we co-evolve with everything in the bioshpere.

Some man in mid-20 century america must have thought that speaking the same language was cheating.

Yesterday evening I saw a film of an interview with John Cage where he went into his views on sound, finding sound wherever you go; the comparison he drew was he perceived most music as someone trying to say something while noise isn't trying to say anything: <it isn't trying to pretend it's in love with another sound>

So in the 20th century music became less rhetorical in construction. I'm interested less in the rhetoric of form as we have it from classical music in favor of the sound communicating something I would personally find false to analogize as talking. At the same time, though, I'm very interested in speech as rhythm; to abstract it from meaning while seeing what there is in terms of the energy of it in motion, in flow. Or even the intent, the emotion found in the way the rhythm is working, the emphases and so forth.

I found the analogy of psychosis versus going back to regular English not useful, personally. Music as conforming to what everybody else finds immediately comprehensible, I suppose. Nah, tiresome, conservative, dull to me.

[vurt]

We are no island

i am.
unless its a criminal offence to impersonate the isle of wight?

[deastman]

Without addressing the broader question, I’ll just say that while I love generative processes, I find purely generative music quite boring. I think the real gold lies in interaction between the musician or composer and these generative processes- treating the system as a collaborator, having a musical conversation with it, guiding and shaping it, reacting to its output. That feels like a more authentic musical statement to me, and the actual end result is usually far more satisfactory.

[jancivil]

I saw the patient as somebody who only referenced themselves.

I see languaging as a behaviour no different to pointing to the moon. Languaging can be seen as a co-ordination of actions and as the example given the non-english-taking man the co-ordinations need to be consensual. So there are consensual co-odinations of consenual co-ordinations of behaviour. It is a social thing a relation between self and other.

We are no island we co-evolve with everything in the bioshpere.

It's pretty unlikely anyone is doing music that only references themselves. They would have to have been removed from all contact their whole life. I'm not aware of any mental illness that removes someone from all reference to the outside world. That would be fascinating. But the reason I referenced your reference was to say I don't think it applies to my creating music at all. As I did say something before about moving away from the norm it seems the reference to the man that is supposed to have lost his ability to even speak his native language may have been a response to that. NB: I don't think the idea to be more individual is like a mental illness of any kind.
It certainly is not to promote a pretense of being an island onto one's self. There is a lot of music in the world I don't even want in my life at all, let alone have some real bearing on my own musical activity. I don't think that's anti-social or anything.

Back in the times of the conservatory in Cincinnati and my friend and I taking acid, he did have the notion of 'no influences' as an aesthetic goal. He's not stupid or at all insane so I don't think it was an absolute goal, just to get as far away from conventional copycat behavior in creation. He played some admirably abstract shit that night.
He liked the ideal of Robert Fripp as a not-influenced guitarist, for instance. But that won't be true upon research. Fripp is not very influenced by blues guitar, that's something I noticed and it didn't change over time. OTOH Hendrix got pretty far out at times...

[Bombadil]

I don't think I've ever even used an arpeggiator on a track. I suppose I'd classify that as cheating. I think it was Roger Waters in the movie 'PF in Pompeii' where he said something about being in control of the machines, rather than the other way around.

[stonestreet]

The patient by not being able to have consensual interactions with others limited his life. The OP seemed to be limiting his expression by having adverse feelings about using arps or whatever. I say use these tools without guilt.

My comments have not been directed at you. I do not know what you do.

Now I am not talking about referencing the outside world I am talking about humans interacting in their medium. You and your mate took acid. Say you look at the wall or the ceiling prior to the onset of the trip, then during the trip and then after the trip. Were there any differences in your perception of the wall/ceiling before during and after? Which "wall" is the true "wall"?

I am saying that the "outside world" is not the important thing, the "words" are not the important thing. It is interacting with others that expands our domains of actions.

By the way I found the name It is Milton Erickson.

I saw the patient as somebody who only referenced themselves.

I see languaging as a behaviour no different to pointing to the moon. Languaging can be seen as a co-ordination of actions and as the example given the non-english-taking man the co-ordinations need to be consensual. So there are consensual co-odinations of consenual co-ordinations of behaviour. It is a social thing a relation between self and other.

We are no island we co-evolve with everything in the bioshpere.

It's pretty unlikely anyone is doing music that only references themselves. They would have to have been removed from all contact their whole life. I'm not aware of any mental illness that removes someone from all reference to the outside world. That would be fascinating. But the reason I referenced your reference was to say I don't think it applies to my creating music at all. As I did say something before about moving away from the norm it seems the reference to the man that is supposed to have lost his ability to even speak his native language may have been a response to that. NB: I don't think the idea to be more individual is like a mental illness of any kind.
It certainly is not to promote a pretense of being an island onto one's self. There is a lot of music in the world I don't even want in my life at all, let alone have some real bearing on my own musical activity. I don't think that's anti-social or anything.

Back in the times of the conservatory in Cincinnati and my friend and I taking acid, he did have the notion of 'no influences' as an aesthetic goal. He's not stupid or at all insane so I don't think it was an absolute goal, just to get as far away from conventional copycat behavior in creation. He played some admirably abstract shit that night.
He liked the ideal of Robert Fripp as a not-influenced guitarist, for instance. But that won't be true upon research. Fripp is not very influenced by blues guitar, that's something I noticed and it didn't change over time. OTOH Hendrix got pretty far out at times...

[vurt]

good because roky eickson was in the 13th floor elevators, although given the amount of lsd he went through i could see "psychosis" as a possibility