Calling All Big Band Music Experts

[jancivil]

Not really, I've never seen any sale.

I bought what he had at the time (2009) and then he came out with Legendary Trombone which he gave to me for free but that's about it in my experience.

[wagtunes]

Not really, I've never seen any sale.

I bought what he had at the time (2009) and then he came out with Legendary Trombone which he gave to me for free but that's about it in my experience.

Question: This is something that nobody really talks about. We talk about what the best library is with the best sound and most articulations but there's one thing that we don't mention.

How good is anything I do going to be, even with the best instruments, if I don't really know the ins and outs of how to play that instrument?

For example, I did a horn part a long time ago for a piece and played it for somebody who actually plays horns. He said there is no way anybody can physically play that part. Not because it was so fancy or anything like that. It was because, wait for it...

Nobody can hold ONE note that long.

That's right. I didn't take into consideration how much breath somebody can actually put into playing that note and for how long they can sustain it.

So even if I get this guy's library, if I really don't know the ins and outs of the instruments, won't what I put out be garbage anyway?

If the answer to that question is yes, then how do I go about making it so that what I do put out isn't garbage? What do I have to do? I do not play trumpet or sax or any of those instruments.

What do I do?

[BertKoor]

What do I do?

What helped there is you got feedback from a real player of that instrument. So obviously, you could try that again.

[wagtunes]

What do I do?

What helped there is you got feedback from a real player of that instrument. So obviously, you could try that again.

Aside from the one guy I know who plays trumpet, I don't know any real players. And I seriously doubt this guy, who has a day job and also works as a musician nights, has the time to sit down with me and say "Okay, here's all the things that a trumpet player can and can't do."

So this isn't even close to a practical solution for me. And no, I don't have the money to go hire people to teach me the ins and outs of their instruments.

[jancivil]

Not really, I've never seen any sale.

I bought what he had at the time (2009) and then he came out with Legendary Trombone which he gave to me for free but that's about it in my experience.

Question: This is something that nobody really talks about. We talk about what the best library is with the best sound and most articulations but there's one thing that we don't mention.

How good is anything I do going to be, even with the best instruments, if I don't really know the ins and outs of how to play that instrument?

That's a very good question. I have osmosis working for me from my life. I played trumpet until I had to have orthodontic work which ended that. I would recommend studying it including reading, the one area of 'theory' where I believe in reading, since you're not likely to be taking lessons on trumpet, trombone and sax all at once in the interim.

[wagtunes]

Not really, I've never seen any sale.

I bought what he had at the time (2009) and then he came out with Legendary Trombone which he gave to me for free but that's about it in my experience.

Question: This is something that nobody really talks about. We talk about what the best library is with the best sound and most articulations but there's one thing that we don't mention.

How good is anything I do going to be, even with the best instruments, if I don't really know the ins and outs of how to play that instrument?

That's a very good question. I have osmosis working for me from my life. I played trumpet until I had to have orthodontic work which ended that. I would recommend studying it including reading, the one area of 'theory' where I believe in reading, since you're not likely to be taking lessons on trumpet, trombone and sax all at once in the interim.

So study as much as I can about how the instruments are played and then try to imagine myself doing it with a real instrument. Well, there goes the rest of my life. LOL.

At least I won't be bored.

[Googly Smythe]

Short of actually learning to play an instrument I think all you can do is listen (and I mean really listen, especially for the different ways notes (or noises!) are produced), and watch videos of good exponents of whatever instrument you want to emulate. Listen out for the articulations in your chosen sample library (falls, shakes, whatever) and how they're used. Imagine actually playing the instrument - regarding your example, record a brass part, when you play it back take a deep breath and blow! How long before you have to take another?
And learn the terminology associated with whatever instrument.Someone beat me to it!

Also, kudos for simaltaneously writing a show musical and a trance project!

[Harry_HH]

Not really, I've never seen any sale.

I bought what he had at the time (2009) and then he came out with Legendary Trombone which he gave to me for free but that's about it in my experience.

Question: This is something that nobody really talks about. We talk about what the best library is with the best sound and most articulations but there's one thing that we don't mention.

How good is anything I do going to be, even with the best instruments, if I don't really know the ins and outs of how to play that instrument?

That's a very good question. I have osmosis working for me from my life. I played trumpet until I had to have orthodontic work which ended that. I would recommend studying it including reading, the one area of 'theory' where I believe in reading, since you're not likely to be taking lessons on trumpet, trombone and sax all at once in the interim.

Even some experienced composers have the challenge of writing stuff for different instruments. When they write music, which include a strange (to them) instrument, not only studying that instrument, but spending time with the player, to learn phrasings, what sounds musical for that instrument, is a very good option.

More modest way is just listening and studying.

I noticed long time ago, that even rather "bad" sampled library can sound pretty good, if you can hear the instrument in your head. An the other way round. E. g. I couldn't get out a natural sound and phrasings of my virtual guitar applications, if I wasn't a guitarist.

[jancivil]

Yeah, I still have a lot to learn about strings, technically. This gets back to talking about how well-articulated is a sample library, where I promoted VSL and its interface; if only just in terms of trial and error.

And if you do not know from doits and so forth on a horn, you aren't bloody likely to be faking them with a library just because it has a whole lot of pre-assigned CC to it, or that some people happen to be fantastic at working with it. So I argue for having the articulations; some I call gestures when they have definite intent abstracted from practice.

[wagtunes]

Okay, I watched this video.



No need to watch the whole thing. He just goes over all the controls of the Alto Sax. It is quite extensive.

I did searches for other products of his on Youtube and this is the only one. In fact, there are only 3 videos related to his products on all of Youtube.

This can't help but make me wonder about a few things, given what I saw in the video.

1. If his products are so great, why aren't more people demoing them or showing them off? VSL is all over Youtube. There is no shortage of videos. This guy? Almost nothing. That to me is a red flag.

2. The video does not show any ensemble mode for the Alto Sax. In going to his web site and looking up his packages, reading the specs, it appears that only the trumpets and trombones have ensemble modes. Saxaphones, no. Is a sax ensemble so rare? I'd like to think not. In the meantime, Mojo 2 and Broadway Big Band have ensemble modes for all their instruments.

3. The keyswitching is a nightmare. With 90 articulations, sure, it's going to be. So he had to resort to a 2 key keyswitching scheme. You need a degree in computer programming just to figure out how to use this scheme. Use friendly it is not. Certainly not for live play. I don't want to spend most of my time in the piano roll hitting keyswitches. Now to be fair, I don't know what the keyswitching is like in the other products so for all I know, it could be just as bad. But what I saw did not make me want to run out and buy this product.

If I'm going to spend $1,300 on a product, I'd like to know that it truly is the best of what's out there. What I'm hearing and certainly what I'm seeing, doesn't instill me with a great deal of confidence. Especially since I can't demo this product.

Now to be fair, there aren't a ton of videos for Broadway Big Band either but a lot more than for Warp IV. And Mojo 2 is brand new so who knows how many bugs will be in it. And of course BBB is almost twice as much as Warp IV and contains a lot of things I don't need and can't eliminate because it's all or nothing.

Making a decision on any of this without being able to demo any of it does not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

[jancivil]

I've used most of it; actually I've used nearly every instrument (I don't have the guitars).
The keyswitching is keyswitching; if you need the articulation you load them and switch to them, like everything else.
I wasn't loading 90 articulations. He has more now than then, there was a substantial upgrade last year. I was supposed to help him with it in the beta phase but shit happened.


Some of that is special expression keys, eg: "E0 and F0 allow you to use
different recorded versions of the same articulation (played on neighboring notes)" which is basically the same as the VSL tuning trick to get a new sample
(Each time an E0 is played, it lowers the voice of the next note by half a step. Similarly,
each time an F0 is played, it raises the voice of the next note by half a step. ).

Apparently there is a lot of new stuff for EWI or breath controller. The way it was in the beginning was there was an .nki for every single articulation, the old paradigm like things were a decade and more ago. I loaded full-ish versions, which have descriptive names as to purpose.

Besides KS, the swells have 4 different durations and that's ranges of Mod Wheel. It's not harder than anything else, that disposition makes no sense to me at all. It seems to me that you're unaccustomed to detailed articulation of a sample library. My VSL piccolo flute has a couple hundred articulations. If you want "live", just load the legato version. That can go a long way. The extra control is for people that want to do a lot.

I don't think he cares to get into a lot of promotion. His day job is writing 'time warping' software for the missile defense of the United States; predictive really fast software that's beyond my pay grade to try and explain. It's a labor of love, hard to feature him doing it for the money.

I can't do much more with your post.
The sound is superb and IME not surpassed anywhere.

[digitalboytn]

For example, I did a horn part a long time ago for a piece and played it for somebody who actually plays horns. He said there is no way anybody can physically play that part. Not because it was so fancy or anything like that. It was because, wait for it...

Nobody can hold ONE note that long.

That's right. I didn't take into consideration how much breath somebody can actually put into playing that note and for how long they can sustain it.

Some of the horn players use circular breathing techniques,so they can hold a note for a considerable length of time ..

But it is usually just a party trick...a show piece...

One trumpet/trombone player who I used to work with a while ago has a prodigious technique and that was one of his special skills...

The Aboriginal didgeridoo players from Australia also employ circular breathing techniques in their playing

[wagtunes]

I've used most of it; actually I've used nearly every instrument (I don't have the guitars).
The keyswitching is keyswitching; if you need the articulation you load them and switch to them, like everything else.
I wasn't loading 90 articulations. He has more now than then, there was a substantial upgrade last year. I was supposed to help him with it in the beta phase but shit happened.


Some of that is special expression keys, eg: "E0 and F0 allow you to use
different recorded versions of the same articulation (played on neighboring notes)" which is basically the same as the VSL tuning trick to get a new sample
(Each time an E0 is played, it lowers the voice of the next note by half a step. Similarly,
each time an F0 is played, it raises the voice of the next note by half a step. ).

Apparently there is a lot of new stuff for EWI or breath controller. The way it was in the beginning was there was an .nki for every single articulation, the old paradigm like things were a decade and more ago. I loaded full-ish versions, which have descriptive names as to purpose.

Besides KS, the swells have 4 different durations and that's ranges of Mod Wheel. It's not harder than anything else, that disposition makes no sense to me at all. It seems to me that you're unaccustomed to detailed articulation of a sample library. My VSL piccolo flute has a couple hundred articulations. If you want "live", just load the legato version. That can go a long way. The extra control is for people that want to do a lot.

I don't think he cares to get into a lot of promotion. His day job is writing 'time warping' software for the missile defense of the United States; predictive really fast software that's beyond my pay grade to try and explain. It's a labor of love, hard to feature him doing it for the money.

I can't do much more with your post.
The sound is superb and IME not surpassed anywhere.

Well, I just listened side by side Warp IV and Broadway Big Band (Yes, Mojo 2 doesn't sound nearly as good) and I can't tell any appreciable difference between the two. BBB sounds like an excellent product. Soundwise, I think I prefer it's tone a little over Warp IV. Hard to explain but tone wise it sounds more mellow, where Warp IV seems to have a more sharp, cutting tone. But I'd be happy with either one sound wise. BBB, however, is $2,300. And yes, you do get more flexibility (not so much in articulations) in mic positions, number of instruments, etc. But yeah, it's a thousand dollars more too. So there's that.

BBB sounds great. Anybody who says otherwise is just prejudiced. The Commodores use it and they're blown away by it. Other producers endorse it as well. But then there's that thousand dollars more thing rearing it's ugly head again.

If money wasn't an object, there would be nothing for me to decide. It would be BBB hands down. Hell, I'd probably get them both just to have different sounding products because there is no question, timber wise, they do sound different.

Well, you've helped me as much as you can at this point and I've done all I can do on my end to come to some kind of decision. Ultimately, it's up to me to make it.

I'm in no rush. Especially since neither of these ever go on sale.

[digitalboytn]

I'm sorry, jancivil, but my sister was playing trumpet in some school brass band and I've listened to more brass than I would have liked during my life.

Really, your sister played trumpet in school band is part of promoting yourself as the authority in this appeal to authority? The other part being "I've listened to more brass than I will have liked". Yeah, you're the go-to in this thread aren't you.

You saw that somebody on an internet forum did something?

[jancivil]

Oh, as to "sax ensemble", here's what a large group sax section looks like:
2 alto; 2 tenor; bari. That's atypical, it's usually 1 alto; 1 maybe 2 tenors; bari.

It's not a lot of doubling like a string section in symphonic settings. It's almost never doubling a part. So I'm sure I never loaded any sax ensemble and I'm pretty sure there isn't one.

As to my earlier remarks about building ensembles out of solo instruments, that's about doubling. The trombone ensemble doubles things, and care was taken as to the stereo cancellations and reinforcements in the stereo recording. The trumpets I guess are the same, but I don't recall dealing with it.