PSP Saturator

[gaggle of hermits]

1) Output gain control is placed after the dry/wet control.

maybe I'm missing something but I'm not really seeing a problem here.

[Scarlet Pumpernickel]

1) Output gain control is placed after the dry/wet control.

maybe I'm missing something but I'm not really seeing a problem here.

It's a drawback FOR ME, as I wrote in my post. It's a drawback, because every time one uses the mix knob - the volume changes.
Apart from some modulation processors, I don't see a reason for a mix control to be anywhere but last in the chain.

[gaggle of hermits]

it will be there to support A/B comparisons at the same perceived level, or just regular gain staging. mixing more saturated signal is bound to increase the perceived level as will turning up the saturation itself. to be honest i'm not sure where you're expecting that gain knob to go if it's not at the output.

[jens]

He explained to you in clear words why it can be a huge problem to place the output gain compensation after the mix knob - and of course this reasoning makes perfect sense, which is why almost all non-linear plugins of this kind have it the other way around, so I really don't get why in the world you would have to ask that question here - you literally just have to look at just about any other saturation/distortion or dynamics plugin that has a mix knob.

[gaggle of hermits]

He explained to you in clear words why it can be a huge problem to place the output gain compensation after the mix knob - and of course this reasoning makes perfect sense, which is why almost all non-linear plugins of this kind have it the other way around, so I really don't get why in the world you would have to ask that question here - you literally just have to look at just about any other saturation/distortion or dynamics plugin that has a mix knob.

you might actually want to check before pulling out the emojis. it's the same layout psp used for 15+ years on the predecessor and on vintagewarmer, among others. in all that time, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's wrong or a problem. maybe you can find some examples (other than the one in this thread).

fyi, klanghelm's sdrr also places the output trim at the far right, implying it is indeed an output trim. decapitator and saturn appear to have it reversed (which you seem to consider the default); waves tend to go with output trim as the last control. to my mind, if there's an output trim, I'd kinda expect it to be on the output.

I'm also not sure why you're mentioning dynamics here, possibly it's because you're confusing makeup gain with output trim. dmg trackcomp, for example, has both. mix is in the middle, so I can only imagine you find that to be wrong as well (for whatever reason).

[v1o]

Personally I prefer the output knob placed before the saturation input.

[jens]

fyi, klanghelm's sdrr also places the output trim at the far right, implying it is indeed an output trim.

fyi, it isn't.

possibly it's because you're confusing makeup gain with output trim

lol

[gaggle of hermits]

fyi, klanghelm's sdrr also places the output trim at the far right, implying it is indeed an output trim.

fyi, it isn't.

i think we're finally getting somewhere: it's the klanghelm that has the counter-intuitive layout (as does saturn2, whereas imo saturn1 had a more intuitive approach), probably because I think tony added a mix control in v2 and had nowhere else to put it but tucked away in the middle. it's not a dealbreaker for me, but the psp organisation makes far more sense overall as i already explained. if you want to A/B without using a second gain plugin, the psp has the better approach. to my mind, output gain should genuinely mean output gain. if it's wet-channel gain only, the plugin should say so.

realistically, independent dry and wet level sliders would be the clearest but for some reason there is this obsession with doing it as mix ratios.

[Scarlet Pumpernickel]

@gaggle of hermits

I'll try to explain my approach further and I don't want it to be snide or condescending, please bear with me. If the mix control is located last, there's really no gain change when I'm doing A/B comparisons, because I'm mindful of my gain staging from the very beginning. Here's my approach:

With the mix set to 100% wet, I dial a desired amount of saturation and then I compensate for a volume change with an output gain control (located before a mix control), so that saturated signal is same in volume with an original signal.

Now, when I set a desired mix of dry/wet, a volume doesn't change with any ratio between dry and wet. Obviously the same is true when I'm doing A/B comparisons, because both A and B are equal in volume to the dry signal.

This approach is not possible if one can't control the volume of a saturated signal before mixing it back with a dry signal. I concede, it is not a mix control being last in a chain that is crucial, but having a gain control for a saturated signal only to be located before a mix control. Having two output controls, one before and one after a mix control (like in Kelvin) is also absolutely fine.

[Dirtgrain]

[Must resist urge to get in on argument about knob placement]

[gaggle of hermits]

[Must resist urge to get in on argument about knob placement]

i know the feeling.

[gaggle of hermits]

@gaggle of hermits

I'll try to explain my approach further and I don't want it to be snide or condescending, please bear with me. If the mix control is located last, there's really no gain change when I'm doing A/B comparisons, because I'm mindful of my gain staging from the very beginning. Here's my approach:

With the mix set to 100% wet, I dial a desired amount of saturation and then I compensate for a volume change with an output gain control (located before a mix control), so that saturated signal is same in volume with an original signal.

Now, when I set a desired mix of dry/wet, a volume doesn't change with any ratio between dry and wet. Obviously the same is true when I'm doing A/B comparisons, because both A and B are equal in volume to the dry signal.

This approach is not possible if one can't control the volume of a saturated signal before mixing it back with a dry signal. I concede, it is not a mix control being last in a chain that is crucial, but having a gain control for a saturated signal only to be located before a mix control. Having two output controls, one before and one after a mix control (like in Kelvin) is also absolutely fine.

I see where you're coming from but with something like sdrr, you're still going to get overall volume changes as the mix ratio changes because the offset for 100% may well be different to the offset needed for some other percentage - though the AGC might catch that. I just wind up compensating it in a different way.

in the context of a fairly subtle saturator, those changes may not be significant and so I can see why you don't like the psp approach. I was just a bit puzzled at first because I'd never seen anyone have trouble with their approach vs say klanghelm or fabfilter and couldn't work out why it would be a dealbreaker for someone. but, yeah, the kelvin approach looks good - I've got the compressor but didn't jump on the saturator as I feel fully saturated out.

sorry for the digression on knob placement.

[SeeingInMidi]

1) Output gain control is placed after the dry/wet control.

maybe I'm missing something but I'm not really seeing a problem here.

It's a drawback FOR ME, as I wrote in my post. It's a drawback, because every time one uses the mix knob - the volume changes.
Apart from some modulation processors, I don't see a reason for a mix control to be anywhere but last in the chain.

use the makeup gain in the drop down panel.

[Scarlet Pumpernickel]

1) Output gain control is placed after the dry/wet control.

maybe I'm missing something but I'm not really seeing a problem here.

It's a drawback FOR ME, as I wrote in my post. It's a drawback, because every time one uses the mix knob - the volume changes.
Apart from some modulation processors, I don't see a reason for a mix control to be anywhere but last in the chain.

use the makeup gain in the drop down panel.

You are absolutely right!

[Hermetech Mastering]

Anyone with experience with actual analogue saturation shot this out against Kelvin? Same price, am wondering which is closest.