ROLI does release a new seaboard

[Ou_Tis]

I think that’s beyond the scope of a product like this. Kind of like expecting a digital piano to have knobs because it spits out MIDI.

I know. No but c'mon now...knobs are cheap and should be on everything. They even put them on guitars now.

Putting a knob on a Rise would be like putting one on an iPad. It just isn’t that. I like knobs and sliders too, but I’ve not once ever wished one was on my Rise 49. Best to have something where it’s a focus, not a tacked on afterthought.

Yeah, I might actually use my big old Novation Launchkey if it didn't have those pesky crappy keys getting in the way of the knobs and sliders.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Pressure threshold and pressure onset delay. There was a real blurry line between pressure and velocity with the original. I'm a terrible keyboard player and tend to really tense up and grip things in a bad way so it was probably my technique but it would take me a while to adjust to the Seaboard any time I played it because I'd have a tendency to land on the keywaves hard which would trigger both a high velocity and an immediate high pressure event. It would be great if the Seaboard could adjust to my awful playing style by reading only velocity for the initial touch, then adjusting the pressure based on additional pressure applied after that with the original pressure acting as a baseline for each keywave.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Regarding the damn knobs comment that's got legs: 1) I wasn't as serious about it as perhaps I sounded, it's more of a pie in the sky wishlist idea, but also 2) you guys are looking at it from the perspective of, "I've already got MIDI controllers with knobs so I don't need this for that." I'm looking at it from the perspective of, "I could see this being someone's primary MIDI controller if..."

But yes, I understand, that's not where the product is yet and it doesn't make sense to do that just yet. But desk space is limited for lots of folks, myself included, and having two MIDI controllers (e.g. a Komplete Kontrol 61 AND a Rise 49) may not work for everyone. For a lot of people it may be a one or the other type of affair. A future "Rise Pro" that was a Rise keywave system attached to a Komplete Kontrol like chasis with knobs, buttons, faders might be that killer MPE controller that serves both purposes. My 12 year old nephew is talented at piano but gives zero shits about standard keyboards and doesn't want to play piano anymore; so I think there's a generation of kids who might be getting into electronic music production and just could care less about "keyboards" but still want tactile controller functionality. Kind of like taking a bog-average cell phone that only does talking and adding touchscreen computing capabilities to it. Or adding peanut butter to chocolate. Sometimes it's good to combine things and create something new.

Anyway, I agree this wasn't meant for that and the market (as well as Roli) just aren't there yet.

[Ou_Tis]

Regarding the damn knobs comment that's got legs: 1) I wasn't as serious about it as perhaps I sounded, it's more of a pie in the sky wishlist idea, but also 2) you guys are looking at it from the perspective of, "I've already got MIDI controllers with knobs so I don't need this for that." I'm looking at it from the perspective of, "I could see this being someone's primary MIDI controller if..."

But yes, I understand, that's not where the product is yet and it doesn't make sense to do that just yet. But desk space is limited for lots of folks, myself included, and having two MIDI controllers (e.g. a Komplete Kontrol 61 AND a Rise 49) may not work for everyone. For a lot of people it may be a one or the other type of affair. A future "Rise Pro" that was a Rise keywave system attached to a Komplete Kontrol like chasis with knobs, buttons, faders might be that killer MPE controller that serves both purposes. My 12 year old nephew is talented at piano but gives zero shits about standard keyboards and doesn't want to play piano anymore; so I think there's a generation of kids who might be getting into electronic music production and just could care less about "keyboards" but still want tactile controller functionality. Kind of like taking a bog-average cell phone that only does talking and adding touchscreen computing capabilities to it. Or adding peanut butter to chocolate. Sometimes it's good to combine things and create something new.

Anyway, I agree this wasn't meant for that and the market (as well as Roli) just aren't there yet.

For production (/mixing etc.) at a desk with limited space, it seems like having multiple small components you can swap out saves the most space. Or a modular approach where they connect with each other. So they could add a "knob Block" if there's enough demand for it. One apparent negative of Rise 2---from what they've said so far it doesn't seem to integrate with the Blocks system.

But for live performance, not needing an additional tray + stand or desk or table for support (or else having to do it on the floor) is an advantage of Rise over combining multiple Blocks, especially multiple Seaboard Blocks. I hope they add the frets (provided they're subtle enough not to get in the way of gliding---it appears they are) to the Seaboard Blocks, along with thin LEDs at the top so they can be used with Lumi software. That could also set up a progression from Lumi to Seaboard Blocks (similar key-size to Lumi) to Seaboard Rise 2.

[machinesworking]

I think that’s beyond the scope of a product like this. Kind of like expecting a digital piano to have knobs because it spits out MIDI.

To be fair, I'm sitting in front of an Akai MPK88, there's also the SL88 from NI, and the Arturia 88 piano key controller. I do think it's out of the scope though and the sliders are good enough in general use.

The big miss is internal presets, even a paltry 5 would've been fantastic.

Yeah, 100% agree with that. And a pressure threshold control too, so the pressure can function more like aftertouch.

I mean on the abstract knobs are great, but sliders and an XY pad cover that, but internal control of the MPE settings and CC etc. controlled by the sliders and XY pad is a no brainer to me. That it doesn't have that means if Roli goes tits up, then you're stuck with whatever version of Windows and Mac OS that last support the Roli Dashboard. NI changed their tune on that and the SL range is capable of storing some basic configurations, because let's face it, every universal™ control surface support has eventually died or been depreciated.

[machinesworking]

If I flayed the skin of an ethical and moral person, and sauntered around the high street wearing it on my face pretending to be something I am not, I'm pretty sure someone .. somewhere... would have someTHING to say.....


But a company does it, and no-one cares.


Interesting world we live in.

To be fair, it's only one person here throwing shade at people for not liking the same products he does.

Here in the USA 30% of us make so much noise that the rest of the world forgets how outnumbered they are. The weirdest quirk of the internet is that the loudest voices are what people remember in a 15 minutes of fame Warhol like rendition of the fact that history is largely the history of war and conquest rather than human achievement.

[Ou_Tis]

"Unlike a piano, it is possible for one's fingers to slip off of the keys, or become disoriented and unintentionally alter pitch. This is something we progressively improved from the GRAND to RISE to Seaboard BLOCK, but our research into the neuroscience of musical performance — particularly the cognitive loop that takes place between fine motor control and tactile perception — led us to identify a design flaw in the Seaboard.

In trying to make the Seaboard continuous, I had initially given it a curved sine wave-like structure. But our research suggested that auditory and visual perception is not fast or accurate enough to track the finger-by-finger micro adjustments that are necessary to play a continuous pitch instrument like the Seaboard in tune across multiple voices. Not only would one’s fingers slip off the keys, one couldn’t easily perceive exactly where on the key one’s finger is touching. You must have a muscle memory trigger to make the required micro-corrections in real time that enable mastery of an instrument. But because the Seaboard offers so many expressive variables (effectively 50 because you can modulate each of your 10 fingers in 5 dimensions), it is even more essential to be able to rely on muscle memory instead of a visual or audio reference of where your fingers are on the Keywaves.

In designing a solution, we took some of the advances we made with the Seaboard Block surface shape and also looked to other branches of the instrument family tree that also have relatively expressive gestural control, especially string instruments where continuous pitched playing creates profound expressiveness but also real challenges associated with playing in tune. The result is Keywave2, and what we feel is the most approachable, easiest to play interface we’ve ever made. It features precision frets, small embossed lines of silicone down the centre of each key which, like a guitar’s fretboard, serve as a motor-sensory guide. We’ve also broadened the surface and articulated the shoulders of each keywave to further improve register.

Collectively, they are subtle changes that lead to an entirely new playing experience. When we shared the new surface with seasoned composer A. R. Rahman, a long time supporter whose advice we trust deeply, noted that when playing he could now just close his eyes, play a solo, and feel it."

https://roli.com/stories/seaboard-rise- ... -of-making

[BONES]

I've owned a single ROLI hardware product and it was absolute crap.

How? What product was it and what was wrong with it? Without any elaboration, you're just one experience against my 10. To elaborate on my own experiences, every product I've bought has had exemplary build quality. They are all extremely well put together and feel way more durable than any of the half-a-dozen or so "normal" MIDI controllers I own or any of my hardware synths. The industrial design also makes them work much better. They never slip and slide around, they never wobble. All the buttons and I/O is consistent and well thought out and the way the Lightpads respond to their orientation is brilliant.

Dashboard makes the Seaboard so customisable that anyone should be able to get it to work for them and it's so easy to do. The one time I had a problem with funny key response on my Seaboard, support helped me sort it out within a few days. That was a couple of years ago and I haven't had even the tiniest problem since, even when I connect 6 Blocks up together (which seems to be the limit for powering everything via USB). The amount of software and the sheer quality of the content that comes with any Roli hardware device is amazing and adds heaps of value to the deal.

It's not all great, though. The snap cases they sell are rubbish, absolutely useless for their intended purpose. Mine came with the Songmaker Kit, if I'd paid money for it I'd have been very disappointed. I bought the case/cover thing for the Rise I had and it was fairly useless, too. It wasn't bad, it worked as advertised, it's just not something I got any use out of.

Not for me, I had the Seaboard Block, didnt like it, Roli Dashboard even worse. Got a Sensel Morph, so much betterfor me. Best thing Roli have done is Equator2.

What was wrong with Dashboard? I find it works really well. And I love my Seaboard Block. In comparison the Sensel stuff looks cheap and toy-like. I'd also worry about how hard the surface is. If it's like the early Lightpads, I doubt I could use it. I don't like its form factor, either. Too deep, which pushes your computer further out of reach.

The big miss is internal presets, even a paltry 5 would've been fantastic.

Presets for what? Some of the Lightpad apps have presets so you can change the layout on the fly but I don't know what sort of presets I'd want for my Seaboard.

Yeah, 100% agree with that. And a pressure threshold control too, so the pressure can function more like aftertouch.

Can't you do that with the sliders on the unit? Or in Dashboard? Or does that just flatten the entire response?

But desk space is limited for lots of folks, myself included, and having two MIDI controllers (e.g. a Komplete Kontrol 61 AND a Rise 49) may not work for everyone.

The main reason I have Roli stuff is because of my restricted desk space. To be fair, it's also why I got rid of my Rise, which was just ridiculously big for a 25 key controller. But I couldn't fit either a Kontrol61 or a Rise 49 on my desk, either. OTOH, the Blocks ecosystem is the opposite - I get a full 25 key controller in a Lightpad Block the size of a portable HDD and the Seaboard Block is smaller than just about any other controller going. And I can set it all up to fit around my laptop so that I have access to all of it without having to strain to reach anything.

A future "Rise Pro" that was a Rise keywave system attached to a Komplete Kontrol like chasis with knobs, buttons, faders might be that killer MPE controller that serves both purposes.

Knobs break and buttons wear out, touch sliders don't. One of the big advantages of the Roli stuff is how durable it is. I can just chuck my Seaboard into a bag or straight into the boot (trunk) of my car and it won't get damaged. I couldn't do that with any of my other controllers or hardware synths, they are all far too delicate.

I mean on the abstract knobs are great, but sliders and an XY pad cover that, but internal control of the MPE settings and CC etc. controlled by the sliders and XY pad is a no brainer to me.

That's exactly what those sliders are for - so you can play with the sensitivity on the fly.

That it doesn't have that means if Roli goes tits up, then you're stuck with whatever version of Windows and Mac OS that last support the Roli Dashboard.

Which means every version of Windows for the foreseeable future. I'd be more worried about USB-C being made redundant than software not working in a future version of Windows.

[ehdyn]

Have a Seaboard Block which I'm really quite fond of but it can't reliably be turned off ..I've asked ROLI to please put in an "Off" command into the dashboard software for those of us who can't turn the block off and are prematurely wearing down the battery and have flashing lights for hours but they never took up that request.

Just like they never produced updates for Cypher or Strobe to fix long outstanding bugs or for unifying presets for people who purchased before the sale.

Really hope these synths will continue to be maintained as they're quite incredible and unlike anything else on the market.

Was interested in seeing what they were going to release but I'm not going to drop $1300 on a keyboard which I may receive sometime in the future and after being made aware of some of the mistreatment and ill-will from ex-employees I'll just look elsewhere for MPE controllers from now on. Didn't realize it was so bad there and really didn't want to spend more than $800 for a keyboard anyways. Not sure who they're aiming at with this thing. Kind of tone deaf and repeating the same obvious mistakes.. this CEO is a bit thick.

Should've been a hopped up version of the Seaboard Block which can be powered off. But what do I know

[BONES]

Why can't you turn your Seaboard off? I don't have any problem with mine.

[Kalamata Kid]

I wonder if Sensel has plans for a larger Morph with more keys.
Perhaps plans for a Continuum type of midi control surface.
Or maybe some thing unexpected!

I wonder what the Embodme Erae Touch 2 will look like.

[machinesworking]

That it doesn't have that means if Roli goes tits up, then you're stuck with whatever version of Windows and Mac OS that last support the Roli Dashboard.

Which means every version of Windows for the foreseeable future. I'd be more worried about USB-C being made redundant than software not working in a future version of Windows.

Well there's all those 32 bit applications that are going under. The next big jump is IMO obviously towards again lower power consuming chips.

The point is clear, it's been mentioned before, you're one of the few people who don't think about it, but it's clear to almost everyone else that deprecated code eventually dies. What doesn't die is the onboard ability to set patches for something like the Roli if it had that. Granted worst case scenario get a cheap laptop to "change patches" in the Roli if it goes haywire on some future version of your OS, but it's still not the same as the onboard patches for various setups in the AKAI MPK88 here.

Have a Seaboard Block which I'm really quite fond of but it can't reliably be turned off ..I've asked ROLI to please put in an "Off" command into the dashboard software for those of us who can't turn the block off and are prematurely wearing down the battery and have flashing lights for hours but they never took up that request.

Like Bones pointed out, they can be turned off, just hold the power button for a couple seconds and they go off. Mine turns itself off if I don't play with it for 30 minutes or something, kudos to them for thinking of that.

[BONES]

Well there's all those 32 bit applications that are going under.

Only by choice, not out of necessity. 32 bit plugins work fine in 64 bit Windows.

The next big jump is IMO obviously towards again lower power consuming chips.

Maybe for toys, not for professional use. It didn't take off in the 90s, I can't see that anything has changed since then.

The point is clear, it's been mentioned before, you're one of the few people who don't think about it, but it's clear to almost everyone else that deprecated code eventually dies.

Not only do I think about it more than you do, but I know more about it than you do. You live in your little closed world, with your blinkers firmly in place, but there is a wider world where things are so much better than you're able to understand. Every 32 bit plugin I was using when I was on Windows 98 still runs in Windows 11. That's 24 years and 10 full versions of Windows later. Of course, I haven't wanted to use any of those plugins for at least the last 15 of those years but it's still nice to know I could use them again if I wanted to. And that's the thing - we'll all stop using these things long before they stop working, for the simple reason that better things will come along to make them redundant. That's why I don't worry about it. And the only reason you worry about it is because you made a really shit decision about which platform to go with and you're too stubborn or stupid to admit your mistake. So instead you make it everyone else's problem when the solution is right in front of you.

What doesn't die is the onboard ability to set patches for something like the Roli if it had that. Granted worst case scenario get a cheap laptop to "change patches" in the Roli if it goes haywire on some future version of your OS, but it's still not the same as the onboard patches for various setups in the AKAI MPK88 here.

I still don't get what you'd need presets for. It's just a really simple controller and the only thing you'd need to set it up for is the way you play, which you can do on the fly. You'd set everything else up in your DAW to take advantage of what it has to offer. I get why you might want presets for an MPK88 but I don't see why it make any sense at all here. It's just not that complicated.

[machinesworking]

The next big jump is IMO obviously towards again lower power consuming chips.

Maybe for toys, not for professional use. It didn't take off in the 90s, I can't see that anything has changed since then.

Speed, reliability, and power are all related to thermals. This isn’t an arguable point. Intel 15 odd years ago won the chip war for years based on this, again, your own prejudices are preventing you from seeing the obvious here.

What doesn't die is the onboard ability to set patches for something like the Roli if it had that. Granted worst case scenario get a cheap laptop to "change patches" in the Roli if it goes haywire on some future version of your OS, but it's still not the same as the onboard patches for various setups in the AKAI MPK88 here.

I still don't get what you'd need presets for. It's just a really simple controller and the only thing you'd need to set it up for is the way you play, which you can do on the fly. You'd set everything else up in your DAW to take advantage of what it has to offer. I get why you might want presets for an MPK88 but I don't see why it make any sense at all here. It's just not that complicated.

The Roli can be set up for various plug ins, that specifically asks for different configurations. The obvious one is part of the MPE spec, master channel of 1 or 16. The Linnstrument has 6 preset slots, you don’t need a lot, but a few is enough for all the most common configurations. Look at Roli Dashboard and see 5-6 configurations…

[BONES]

Speed, reliability, and power are all related to thermals. This isn’t an arguable point.

Nor is it relevant, particularly for desktop machines, which can be air or liquid cooled. M1 powered MB Air still has significant cooling, including fans, where there are Intel powered Surface tablets that manage without fans or, like one I used to own, uses liquid cooling for totally silent operation. So it is, at best, a technical advantage that is largely meaningless for real world usage.

Intel 15 odd years ago won the chip war for years based on this, again, your own prejudices are preventing you from seeing the obvious here.

Intel never "won" anything, they have owned the space from the get-go.

The Roli can be set up for various plug ins, that specifically asks for different configurations.

It's got three sliders and an X-Y pad. It would be way less hassle to set it up on your DAW than to have to physically change presets on the hardware. OTOH, something with 20+ controls might be easier done on the hardware.

The obvious one is part of the MPE spec, master channel of 1 or 16. The Linnstrument has 6 preset slots, you don’t need a lot, but a few is enough for all the most common configurations. Look at Roli Dashboard and see 5-6 configurations…

I no longer have a Rise, I can't see it's config and it's not something I would ever have thought to look into when I had the Rise because it seemed more useful to have those controls working on the Rise itself, in the same way I use a Touch Block to adjust my Seaboard Block on the fly. But if you can have multiple configs stored in Dashboard, then you don't need them on the hardware, do you?