Got Fu**ed by FabFilter (Got fixed by FabFilter, cause after all we're only human)

[jamcat]

The one clear lesson here for end users is never buy “used” licenses. and the lesson for software developers is to protect their customers by not allowing license transfers.

Yeah, I'm not sure how well that would go down.

If every plugin license sold was NFR..?

Well you recognize that the thing being sold is a license issued to you from the developer to use their intellectual property. So how do you square selling a license to use someone else's property? Wouldn't that be like trying to sell a house you're renting?

[Greenstorm33]

I fail to see how FabFilter could be at fault for these improper license transfers.

well, they're clearly at fault for having a system where its possible in the first place.

Respectfully, if it were possible to create systems that prevented all crime … there would be no crime.

We received multiple email from customers whose licenses were transferred to your account without their knowledge.

Is this not what's being discussed? How the hell do you transfer a license that doesn't even belong to you? It makes no sense. They should verify with the email on file with the original owner's account that they are the ones who requested the transfer. Unless the user's account has been hacked, in which case they should transfer the license back to the user who it was stolen from, not lock the buyer's account since they are not at fault.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Well you recognize that the thing being sold is a license issued to you from the developer to use their intellectual property. So how do you square selling a license to use someone else's property? Wouldn't that be like trying to sell a house you're renting?

Laws vary by location. But imagine a book. You purchase a copy of the book. That doesn't make you the author. And yet, you can still sell that same book secondhand. What you don't have the right to do is make a copy of the book and sell it. In the US, the concept of selling the book in this example is the First Sale Doctrine. The EU has similar rules. Where those rules land on software is still a little murky, because software must be copied nowadays (no physical media). The EU, as I understand it, offers more protection for software resales than the US, where there is conflicting case law and nothing clear in legislation. I don't know enough about other locations to even begin to comment. Software companies are more than happy to maintain the status quo for obvious reasons. But it doesn't mean the First Sale Doctrine, or similar EU equivalents, shouldn't apply to software. Every company would love to shut down secondhand sales of their products. That would be awful for consumers and the planet, and great for their bottom lines.

[Ghostwave]

While I can understand why buying and selling the same plugins multiple times raises red flags, locking the OP's account without giving him the chance to explain himself is a poor move.
The automated license transfer allows this type of scam. Someone could sell the license, pay the transfer fee with a friend's credit card and then claim they didn't do it and get their license back (along with the money the buyer sent, of course).

[jocknaethick]

Wouldn't that be like trying to sell a house you're renting?

I would have thought it would be more like sub-letting the house you were renting?

[rasmusklump]

What if they just locked the account as a quick first step to save further potential victims and want to sort it in detail with the op afterwards?

[jamcat]

doing the "right thing", if you know what I mean.

Actually, I don't know what you mean. What do you mean by the "doing the right thing" in this context, and why is "right thing" in quotes? It kind of reminds me of Eric Idle. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more. Know what I mean?

I've been a customer for a long time now, buying "new" licenses, selling them again, getting some second hand licenses - the usual thing, just like we all do.

How many second-hand licenses did you acquire, exactly, and over what period of time? How many licenses have you sold? These are important details to get a proper context.

Thanks for getting in touch.

Your account is deactivated. We received multiple email from customers whose licenses were transferred to your account without their knowledge. The transfer licenses were all purchased by somebody else. It seems your account is used to transfer license before they are sold again, so we deactivated your account.

If you have any more questions, just let us know!

So did you get a bunch of licenses at once from one person? Or are you telling us that you unwittingly fell for the same scam multiple times (from multiple scammers?) over a period of time, which then were reported to Fabfilter over a relatively short period of time recently?

This is why those details matter.

I'm considering legal action, anybody got any advice on that (I'm within the EU, as are they) - different country though.

Do you still even want to use Fabfilter plugins after this, or are you just hoping to get them back to sell, to cover some small fraction of the lawyers' fees you will incur trying to get them back?

[Proteinshake]

While I can understand why buying and selling the same plugins multiple times raises red flags, locking the OP's account without giving him the chance to explain himself is a poor move.
The automated license transfer allows this type of scam. Someone could sell the license, pay the transfer fee with a friend's credit card and then claim they didn't do it and get their license back (along with the money the buyer sent, of course).

Had a case with Overloud once, they denied a license transfer I requested because the license I bought second hand years before was EDU and therefore actually tagged non-transferrable. But it only took one mail to resolve it, cause support realized it was them who wrongfully authorized the transfer to me in the first place - so they fixed it and went ahead with the transfer anyways. Kudos to them!

I know this is a completely different story and I do not condone of scam. If I received any license wrongfully, take it back .. I'll know who it is from, I'll report it. FabFilter would set it right, I could possibly get refunded by PayPal still, as my latest second hand purchases aren't that long ago and the scammer might be banned (at least temporarily ..) . Everbody "wins".

This isn't what happened, however, and people telling me I'm not trying to get this resolved with FabFilter should try having a conversation with someone who doesn't seem to want to have this kind of conversation.

[jamcat]

You purchase a copy of the book. That doesn't make you the author. And yet, you can still sell that same book secondhand. What you don't have the right to do is make a copy of the book and sell it. In the US, the concept of selling the book in this example is the First Sale Doctrine. The EU has similar rules. Where those rules land on software is still a little murky, because software must be copied nowadays (no physical media).

In the case of a book, or a CD, or a computer with an operating system, those are physical items that are inoperable without the embedded IP, and as such are considered "inseparable." This is not the case with mp3s, pdfs, or software. If you can resell your software, then you can resell your iTunes music and your Amazon books. But I don't think you can, and most musicians who happily engage in selling software developers' intellectual property would be pretty pissed off at someone reselling their mp3s.

[whyterabbyt]

improper license transfers you dolt.

neat how you left out the context.

Even neater, its the same one as it had been previously. The one you quoted.

oh, you mean everything but the sentence that came with the question?

"where what's possible? all we've got here is the OP's story. the rest is speculation, including mine."

if you want to be disingenuous, try being better at it.

I couldnt possibly reach the standard you're currently setting.

[Proteinshake]

How many second-hand licenses did you acquire, exactly, and over what period of time? How many licenses have you sold? These are important details to get a proper context.

I would really love to show you, but I can't log into my account to take a snapshot of the history. It's not even that much, considering I've been owning FabFilter plugins since 2011 or 2012, so roughly ten years. Owned two diffent bundles and a handful of upgrades and individual licenses.

So did you get a bunch of licenses at once from one person? Or are you telling us that you unwittingly fell for the same scam multiple times (from multiple scammers?) over a period of time, which then were reported to Fabfilter over a relatively short period of time recently?

This is why those details matter.

I only purchased three second hand licenses recently. One, Timeless 3 was from a local place .. eBay Kleinanzeigen, I believe this one to be 100% legit. The other two I bought from the same seller on GS, Pro-L2 in December .. seemed legit, went through after a couple of days. Bought from the same seller again in January, but that time it took suspiciously long and when I asked about the delay, I got:

Hi
sorry for the delay i've been busy at my work
but for some reason i'm getting an error message when i try to transfer
I bought a token and now I have to find out what's wrong.

https://ibb.co/JtSkHmx

A day later I received the Pro-DS. I didn't suspect a thing then, but I now realize that this transfer and the previous one from the same seller might be what led to my situation now.

Do you still even want to use Fabfilter plugins after this, or are you just hoping to get them back to sell, to cover some small fraction of the lawyers' fees you will incur trying to get them back?

I don't want anything to do with FF anymore.

[gaggle of hermits]

I couldnt possibly reach the standard you're currently setting.

"NO U."

how original.

[whyterabbyt]

I couldnt possibly reach the standard you're currently setting.

"NO U."

how original.

No, merely accurate. Spurious novelty isnt required for that.

[kritikon]

You purchase a copy of the book. That doesn't make you the author. And yet, you can still sell that same book secondhand. What you don't have the right to do is make a copy of the book and sell it. In the US, the concept of selling the book in this example is the First Sale Doctrine. The EU has similar rules. Where those rules land on software is still a little murky, because software must be copied nowadays (no physical media).

In the case of a book, or a CD, or a computer with an operating system, those are physical items that are inoperable without the embedded IP, and as such are considered "inseparable." This is not the case with mp3s, pdfs, or software. If you can resell your software, then you can resell your iTunes music and your Amazon books. But I don't think you can, and most musicians who happily engage in selling software developers' intellectual property would be pretty pissed off at someone reselling their mp3s.

Whatever you think, the EU legal system disagrees with you. There you may onsell sw licenses. The fact that other places such as the US protect corporations and business interests rather than customers is irrelevant unless you live in the US or other capitalist havens. Rather...pity for you that you live in a place where you can buy a product and the law of the land considers it not to be your property once you have bought it. I live in NZ where we also have rapacious free market systems that generally favour profiteering and disenfranchise customers. Unsurprisingly, it is places like here that knock-offs, intellectual copyright theft etc are rife. And it's the companies that do it, not the customer.

[jamcat]

I only purchased three second hand licenses recently. One, Timeless 3 was from a local place .. eBay Kleinanzeigen, I believe this one to be 100% legit. The other two I bought from the same seller on GS, Pro-L2 in December .. seemed legit, went through after a couple of days. Bought from the same seller again in January, but that time it took suspiciously long and when I asked about the delay, I got:

Hi
sorry for the delay i've been busy at my work
but for some reason i'm getting an error message when i try to transfer
I bought a token and now I have to find out what's wrong.

https://ibb.co/JtSkHmx

A day later I received the Pro-DS. I didn't suspect a thing then, but I now realize that this transfer and the previous one from the same seller might be what led to my situation now.

OK. Now we're actually getting somewhere.
The details of your story have won me over to your side.
See how easy that is when you just provide full and relevant information?

This is how it appears to me now:

• Fabfilter sold the license transfers to the person who sold the licenses to you.
• Fabfilter allowed you to register the serial numbers to your account.
• You operated completely within the rules of the (heavily flawed) system that Fabfilter created.
• Fabfilter made this scam possible, and you are as much a victim of it as the people who had their licenses stolen and resold.
• All of the responsibility and accountability for what happened falls on Fabfilter, not you.

I have a few remaining questions for you:

1. Did you resell the Pro-L2 and Pro-DS licenses in question?
2. Did you tell Fabfilter what you just told us?
3. Who sold you the shady licenses on GS?
4. Did you report the seller to GS?
5. Did you report the seller to PayPal?

You should publicize who scammed you here and on GS so others don't fall for it.