Modern P-90s sound more tame to me. Or is it just me?

[Uncle E]

Also this ^^^ another example of BS sales nonsense re pickups.
These charts - re B/ M/ T content.
Any humbucker pickup cannot be said to specifically made with any “set “ mix of Bass , Mid or Treble across the board. I’ll try explain my case for this

Take that SD WLH pickup for example.
-Install in a Les Paul =it has a certain mix B/M/T.
-Now Install in an SG = it has different mix ( tighter /less bass, more midrange, more “snarl” )
-Now install in ES335 =another mix. ( less miss more highs likely)
-Install in a fender scale guitar =different mix again.

The charts work. For simplicity's sake, let's say a pickup's B/M/T is 5/5/5, just add those numbers to the guitar's own B/M/T:

Les Paul 6/5/6 becomes 11/10/11
SG 4/6/6 becomes 9/11/11
ES335 6/7/4 becomes 11/12/9
Strat 3/3/8 becomes 8/8/13
Tele 4/3/8 becomes 9/8/13

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, I personally find Dimarzio's charts and descriptions to be particularly accurate. Even some of their weirder descriptions (for example, the PAF Pro is described as having an “aw” vowel sound) translate once you try them.

[Naillerz78]

Charts for pickups will not tell what it will do to your specific guitar compared to stock pickups.
- would be convenient if it did, but not that simple

But if you compare your stock pickups characteristics with the new pups you can tell what you will bring more of, if you had charts for both.

I had my first strat 3 years ago, and not so familiar with choosing SC pups.

But Gibson, SD and DiMarzio have charts for their pickups.

I reckon SD started w the charts and others followed when they saw his sales.

Well … if you had charts for both…maybe ..but nobody does That’s the point. Only SD knows how to measure as he invented this BS scale.

How is he measuring this B/M/T himself anyway I wonder. Does he use his own golden ears.. or some secret new audioscope of his own invention. Maybe Jimmy Page was involved in that creation too

Only Seymour and Co. have the secret special tech that allows them to measure this ‘B/M/T’
See below reply for more details…and even more questions

[Naillerz78]

The charts work. For simplicity's sake, let's say a pickup's B/M/T is 5/5/5, just add those numbers to the guitar's own B/M/T:

Les Paul 6/5/6 becomes 11/10/11
SG 4/6/6 becomes 9/11/11
ES335 6/7/4 becomes 11/12/9
Strat 3/3/8 becomes 8/8/13
Tele 4/3/8 becomes 9/8/13

Anyway, as mentioned earlier, I personally find Dimarzio's charts and descriptions to be particularly accurate. Even some of their weirder descriptions (for example, the PAF Pro is described as having an “aw” vowel sound) translate once you try them.

Well I like dimarzio above the others that’s for sure. A vowel sound is a more useful description at least. Plus he uses hot chicks to sell his p/u’s Which is important

Re your B/M/T formulas-
I have to say for a start that your layout for ‘simplicity’s sake ‘looks very complicated
Plus isn’t the scale X/10 ? Youre ending up with 13’s! Them is some super-trebly pickups ya got there !

Secondly and most importantly- afaik there is NO measuring device yet created in GuitarLand that will give you a reading of this supposed B/ M/ T ‘rating’ out of 10 of your starting pickup. (Or any)
Because this B/M/T idea and chart is SDs invention (pulled out of his ass imo).it’s purely subjective.

For example - a HB cuts the high frequencies by its design, so I might rate a stock LP something like 7/9/2 as it’s heavy on the bass & midrange. (Or so it’s said ) vs your 6/5/6.

Re your formula - is that calculation from his website /any other ..or just your personal interpretation. I haven’t come across a ‘formula’ for these BMT charts. (Cos it’s BS )

Further to this, and again important :whose ears are *that *golden they can pick up where this Bass range ends and Midrange starts etc?! And assign a ‘value’ to it?
Rediculous!

[Naillerz78]

See the charts as inducing a sine sweep, like you do in frequency response specs for an amp or speaker or something.
- what will it be as response curve

Ok I get it. This is called called Peak Resonant Frequency / Resonant Peak of the pickup afaik.
This is more useful than the B/M/T graphs.
He doesn’t list this RP value on the product pages but it’s listed in a table on his site.

Funnily enough, I’d claimed this SD WLH Page p/u was prob just another of his older models just renamed etc and suggested maybe a ‘PAF 2’
I got confused tho, that model name doesn’t exist . I should have said a ‘59 .Looking at his ‘59 PAF specs it’s almost exactly the same ‘B/M/T ‘graph ,DC resistance and PR as the WLH p/u..

Also re the graphs - interesting that there is no scale on the X axis. Making it pretty much redundant for comparison purposes .
Is one graph even using the same scale as another on his site ? Who knows! You just gotta believe !

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Going back to putting good pickups in cheap guitars to improve them, in my experience, it's always been an improvement. Maybe I don't own any sh*tty enough guitars but it never made anything worse. I've got an early to mid 90's Epiphone Les Paul with Gibson Classic+ 57 PAF's and 50's style wiring with CTS pots and a good cap. Sounds awesome. One of my favorite guitars despite owning real Gibsons. In fact, I'd say Gibson should copy Epiphone's neck angle and cut nuts better because it never had the tuning stability issues of my actual Gibsons which took some work. No headstock breaks either.

I've also got a 94'ish MIM Strat, whatever the standard $300 Strat was in the 90's when I bought it new (first electric guitar). These were not as highly regarded as today's MIM Stratocasters. The truss rod cavity cap on the headstock is that awful looking black plastic like Fender only currently does on their cheapest guitars. But I've got a set of Dimarzio Area pickups in it. Sounds great. It's had upgrades and setups over the years but it sounds and plays awesome. The neck is slender and played in with 3 decades of regular usage, tuning stability is killer even with the trem, no nasty buzzes, resonates pretty well despite the thick poly finish, quiet as a humbucker (it technically is - just voiced for Strat tones).

Again, the single biggest upgrade to these guitars were the pickups. If better pickups made a guitar sound worse, there's something seriously wrong with your guitar IMO. Is it going to fix setup problems like uneven frets and a bad nut? No. But that's where either learning how to setup your guitar, or having a good guitar tech/luthier who can fix these problems is important. Does it make sense to spend as much on pickups and other upgrades as you did on the guitar? That's a different question. The nice thing with upgrades like that is you don't have to do them all at once which spreads out the cost. My first electric guitar, is still one of my favorites, and it's grown with me as a player over the 30 years I've had it.

[Uncle E]

Rumor has it that a 94 MIM would have been put together by Custom Shop luthiers. Have we discussed this before?

[Naillerz78]

Going back to putting good pickups in cheap guitars to improve them, in my experience, it's always been an improvement. Maybe I don't own any sh*tty enough guitars but it never made anything worse. I've got an early to mid 90's Epiphone Les Paul with Gibson Classic+ 57 PAF's and 50's style wiring with CTS pots and a good cap. Sounds awesome. One of my favorite guitars despite owning real Gibsons. In fact, I'd say Gibson should copy Epiphone's neck angle and cut nuts better because it never had the tuning stability issues of my actual Gibsons which took some work. No headstock breaks either.

I've also got a 94'ish MIM Strat, whatever the standard $300 Strat was in the 90's when I bought it new (first electric guitar). These were not as highly regarded as today's MIM Stratocasters. The truss rod cavity cap on the headstock is that awful looking black plastic like Fender only currently does on their cheapest guitars. But I've got a set of Dimarzio Area pickups in it. Sounds great. It's had upgrades and setups over the years but it sounds and plays awesome. The neck is slender and played in with 3 decades of regular usage, tuning stability is killer even with the trem, no nasty buzzes, resonates pretty well despite the thick poly finish, quiet as a humbucker (it technically is - just voiced for Strat tones).

Again, the single biggest upgrade to these guitars were the pickups. If better pickups made a guitar sound worse, there's something seriously wrong with your guitar IMO. Is it going to fix setup problems like uneven frets and a bad nut? No. But that's where either learning how to setup your guitar, or having a good guitar tech/luthier who can fix these problems is important. Does it make sense to spend as much on pickups and other upgrades as you did on the guitar? That's a different question. The nice thing with upgrades like that is you don't have to do them all at once which spreads out the cost. My first electric guitar, is still one of my favorites, and it's grown with me as a player over the 30 years I've had it.

Well you started that discussion mentioning ‘Squier affinity strat’ as the example.. and now moved to your personal example of MIM strat upgrade- which is a * much* better quality guitar top-to-tail. That’s basically a US quality strat assembled in Mexico? I’m talking upgrading Squier’s - Bullets, Affinity’s etc.(and other S copies made in Asia) ie real low budget guitars. apples and oranges.
I’m guessing u upgraded mainly to cut the 60 cycle hum so yeah it’s now effectively “better” .of course. That is a measureable improvement not a subjective one. No more noise.

I’ve not owned a MIM strat , but had a MIM Nashville tele, fantastic guitar. Regret selling that one. But upgrading any squier Tele would not have given me that level of sounds or playability no matter how much money I put into upgrades.that was my debate point. I’ve had classic vibe Squiers also including those. My advice was just buy a MIM instead of upgrading a squier. So your experience bears that out.

It is pretty much the norm tho for players whove upgraded strats to stacked SC/ noiseless/ lace sensors , to report that after upgrade they’ve have lost ‘some good qualities’ in sound of the original pups.

My original debate point related to this “loss” effect talked about in that swapping pickups is always a “trade off” of something.
And it’s also really a guessing game . The charts etc on the website can’t be used with certainty at all that it upgrade to X p/u will give result Y. There’s too many variables.

Hence the phenomenon of ppl cycling through many sets of pickups to get to the set that gives them what they want.

My other debate point was “claiming the capture of an Artists tone in a pickup is complete and utter bullshit” more or less re this WLH p/u and others.

Oh and that these B/M/T charts are also made up nonsense by SD & Co. also. pretty sure SD started that trend tho I’ll focus on him.

And now Uncle E is suggesting your MIM may have been built by custom shop guys

[Uncle E]

Oh and that these B/M/T charts are also made up nonsense

They're meant to guide you in finding what you're looking for. Maybe they don't help you, and that's fine, but they help me a lot.

[Naillerz78]

Oh and that these B/M/T charts are also made up nonsense

They're meant to guide you in finding what you're looking for. Maybe they don't help you, and that's fine, but they help me a lot.

I used to think that also. Until I bought lots and lots of pickups and upgraded many guitars with very mixed results. And noticed this “trade off” effect. And read Roger Mayers thoughts on pickup windings etc . RM is Jimi Hendrix’s effects guru guy and boutique pedal maker .

I’m just tryna pick them apart bit by bit to show the thick layer of Mayo and straight up BS these makers are putting on everything they say about their product.
It’s fraudulent claims to me.

[CapnLockheed]

I know what you mean.....I had a '61 LP Junior, (SG style), with a single dog ear.
It was a total hellbeast!! I also had a mid 90's Chandler Metro with a custom wound P-90
in the neck...that also screamed. My main current P-90 fix is a Hagstrom F200-P. It plays great and it's P-90's sound good but do seem a bit tame especially compared to my old LP Jr. Gawd I miss that gal!!

Nice Hagstrom is it made in China? Fender scale 25.5 or Gibson?
Everyone raves about the old vintage juniors I’d love to try one sometime.

I just bought a Tokai legacy ES335 made in China.
Totally irrelevant to the topic, but I just had to tell someone.
E782D519-1F7B-4558-AD19-E050F5E27D9B.jpeg

Made in China but clearly whoever owns Hagstrom is on top of quality control.
The build quality is better than most Chinese made guitars. Feels more like the best output of Korea. Scale length is 24-3/4" so more like an SG than a Strat. I love the mix
of Gibson/Fender design elements. This guitar is right behind my SG in the current lineup.

[Naillerz78]

I know what you mean.....I had a '61 LP Junior, (SG style), with a single dog ear.
It was a total hellbeast!! I also had a mid 90's Chandler Metro with a custom wound P-90
in the neck...that also screamed. My main current P-90 fix is a Hagstrom F200-P. It plays great and it's P-90's sound good but do seem a bit tame especially compared to my old LP Jr. Gawd I miss that gal!!

Nice Hagstrom is it made in China? Fender scale 25.5 or Gibson?
Everyone raves about the old vintage juniors I’d love to try one sometime.

I just bought a Tokai legacy ES335 made in China.
Totally irrelevant to the topic, but I just had to tell someone.
E782D519-1F7B-4558-AD19-E050F5E27D9B.jpeg

Made in China but clearly whoever owns Hagstrom is on top of quality control.
The build quality is better than most Chinese made guitars. Feels more like the best output of Korea. Scale length is 24-3/4" so more like an SG than a Strat. I love the mix
of Gibson/Fender design elements. This guitar is right behind my SG in the current lineup.

Rad
I’ve played a few Hagstrom LP style axes. Some nice innovative elements and construction to them, I like that are tryna move forward with new materials and HW . Unlike a certain big name company who are stuck in 1959 .. forever.

[Uncle E]

Speaking of being stuck on something forever…

[Naillerz78]

Speaking of being stuck on something forever…

Ok back to the P90s then.
What do you fellas think of this tone, guitar I sold off recently..



Some interesting reading in links below talking about Resonant Peak of pickups. I’ll rest my case now

https://www.premierguitar.com/mod-garag ... parameters

https://seymourduncan.zendesk.com/hc/en ... cteristics.

https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/late ... ison-chart

[The Noodlist]

Ok back to the P90s then.
What do you fellas think of this tone, guitar I sold off recently..

One of the best tones I've heard was a Gibson LP Studio 2xP90s through a Marshall MG100.

[Uncle E]

Sounds great! Those Kemper’s clean up so nicely. I’ve seen people complain about that but I think they’re detached from reality, as demonstrated in your video.