Tone Projects Limiter Uni-L

[Ploki]

I'd just like to add, in the past couple of months, about 90% of my masters shipped with Uni-L.

And a lot of times i did two versions and let the clients pick which they like better, and Uni-L was picked most of the time.

[Vortifex]

You wrote the DSP algorithms for Pro-L and Pro-L2?

Not all of them. Transparent, Modern and Dynamic are my algorithms. All of the genius and tools I used to create them is 100% pure FabFilter awesomeness. I could NOT have made those without the actual meat and potatoes (aka the actual code part of things!).

Ah nice!

[whassup]

I'd just like to add, in the past couple of months, about 90% of my masters shipped with Uni-L.

And a lot of times i did two versions and let the clients pick which they like better, and Uni-L was picked most of the time.

ABX! Great!
So this is the proof that whatever you did alternatively was statistically inferior to Uni-L.
I would love to have somebody make available such an ABX test, publically of course.
Audio, or it never happened. Old KvR saying.

[billinder33]

I totally hear you and 100% agree with you. This is NOT the tool for everybody. Heck, I actually suggested to Rune during the beta if maybe a cut down, very much simplified version, might be a good idea in the future. Maybe even in such a way that it could load presets from the big brother version but only has the absolute simplest of things available. For instance just the big Gain knob + stereo linking + a single look-a-head control. Then slap a 79€ price on that and sell millions of copies.

Having said that, you truly can treat UNI-L as a "one knob" plugin, using the presets. Set your gain, flick through the presets (and save your favorites to the user folder) and you are done. The only other control you may want to tweak little bit is the Transient Threshold knob as it depends on the incoming audio.

One suggestion would be, an additional simplified interface where some of the functions are logically grouped into a set of properly-scaled, curated macro dials (or switches where appropriate) for fast modification of logical groupings like Slow/Fast/Clip crossover, Low/Mid/High lookahead, Transient Detection and Boost, etc. This could be introduced by an alternate button next to the preset button which when pressed, uses the same space as the presets, but holds the macros instead.

Right now I use Pro-L2 for blocking and tackling final limiting, and occasionally Limitless when I want the limiter to have an impact frequency response. I could see adding Uni-L for when I want the limiter to impact transient response, or possibly just replace Pro-L2 altogether. It is a very nice sounding limiter. Close to Pro-L2 which is still my fave after all these years, possibly better? A little more open sounding?

I did reach out to Tone Projects to request help with my loyalty code. Good products do tend to make my money disappear!

[xx JPRacer xx]

They should do what Melda do. And easy page with some macros but it's possible to go behind the scene and get all the controls. Or like u-he Presswerk with the different easy views.

[Ploki]

The limiter literally opens with an easy page with 6 “modes” with a slider.

Use that and gain for a pro-L2 experience

I’m not sure how well macros would work. In the past few months i dont think i ever reached for a parameter and thought “hey i need to adjust this with two more parameters”, and most of complex stuff is hidden already

[dastewart]

I've got a question for bmanic (or anybody else who can answer). The attack time on Pro L2 is a bit strange as it's not the attack time like a compressor but indicates the length of the transient where it applies a release curve. So if you set it to 0.2ms then any sound shorter than that doesn't have any release curve applied to it whereas anything longer does.

I don't really play about with it much but now I'm wondering if this is effectively what Uni-L is doing with its slow/fast limiter circuits. Is it just doing the same thing as Pro l2 in that regard but calling it a different thing?

[bmanic]

To put it very bluntly. If you think you know how the various knobs behave and what they do in Pro-L2, stop yourself right there. You don't. Also, if you try to make heads or tails of it with basic signal analysis methods, like sending it impulses, sine sweeps, pulse trains, DC offsets + pulse trains etc.. good luck interpreting the data!.

It's very program dependent. A setting of 0.2ms on the attack knob may react in one way on some material and in a completely different way on other stuff.. also it may react differently if your release value is at 100ms or at 500ms.. or look-a-head is set to 0.1ms or 5ms.

This is probably the easiest way to think about it:

The "attack" knob on Pro-L2 is literally a macro control that changes tons of parameters behind the scenes. Attack is just an arbitrary name we chose to try to describe what it does in terms of audio when you imagine it as a typical attack control on a compressor with a hard clipper following it.

Thus, simplified: The 'Attack' knob in Pro-L2 allows you to choose how much the signal gets "sent into the faster stages" and the clipping stage.

Longer attack time = more clipping or faster limiting action with more harmonic distortion

Short attack time = much quicker onset of slower limiting stages and much less clipping. Also look-a-head values get treated differently in the 'Modern' algorithm depending on your attack + release settings.

For the 'Dynamic' algorithm, attack controls the transient enhancement prior to limiting, exaggerating transients before hitting the fast &/or clipping stage. Longer attack times = much more transient processing. Shorter attack values = less transient processing.. but again, it's also affected by Release times as that shapes the processing too (and look-a-head changes the curve slightly while at the same time also working as actual look-a-head + hold).

Basically all the controls in Pro-L2 are really just macro controls that do a lot of things in the background.

I'm truly not kidding when I say Uni-L contains some of the building blocks we created for Pro-L and later Pro-L2. You now have a limiter where you get to tinker with some of the hidden stuff and "make your own algorithm".

EDIT: One HUGE mistake FabFilter did with Pro-L2 (and I did object to it!!) was giving Attack and Release controls an arbitrary 'millisecond' value. None of those values have any real world meaning at all. The value should have been % from 0 to 100. Always treat all the knobs as % with no actual values and always explore the full range of them. This is one pitfall that I constantly see people falling into when using Pro-L2.

[dastewart]

To put it very bluntly. If you think you know how the various knobs behave and what they do in Pro-L2, stop yourself right there. You don't. Also, if you try to make heads or tails of it with basic signal analysis methods, like sending it impulses, sine sweeps, pulse trains, DC offsets + pulse trains etc.. good luck interpreting the data!.

It's very program dependent. A setting of 0.2ms on the attack knob may react in one way on some material and in a completely different way on other stuff.. also it may react differently if your release value is at 100ms or at 500ms.. or look-a-head is set to 0.1ms or 5ms.

This is probably the easiest way to think about it:

The "attack" knob on Pro-L2 is literally a macro control that changes tons of parameters behind the scenes. Attack is just an arbitrary name we chose to try to describe what it does in terms of audio when you imagine it as a typical attack control on a compressor with a hard clipper following it.

Thus, simplified: The 'Attack' knob in Pro-L2 allows you to choose how much the signal gets "sent into the faster stages" and the clipping stage.

Longer attack time = more clipping or faster limiting action with more harmonic distortion

Short attack time = much quicker onset of slower limiting stages and much less clipping. Also look-a-head values get treated differently in the 'Modern' algorithm depending on your attack + release settings.

For the 'Dynamic' algorithm, attack controls the transient enhancement prior to limiting, exaggerating transients before hitting the fast &/or clipping stage. Longer attack times = much more transient processing. Shorter attack values = less transient processing.. but again, it's also affected by Release times as that shapes the processing too (and look-a-head changes the curve slightly while at the same time also working as actual look-a-head + hold).

Basically all the controls in Pro-L2 are really just macro controls that do a lot of things in the background.

I'm truly not kidding when I say Uni-L contains some of the building blocks we created for Pro-L and later Pro-L2. You now have a limiter where you get to tinker with some of the hidden stuff and "make your own algorithm".

EDIT: One HUGE mistake FabFilter did with Pro-L2 (and I did object to it!!) was giving Attack and Release controls an arbitrary 'millisecond' value. None of those values have any real world meaning at all. The value should have been % from 0 to 100. Always treat all the knobs as % with no actual values and always explore the full range of them. This is one pitfall that I constantly see people falling into when using Pro-L2.

Wow. Had this plugin for about 5 years and I use it on every track and I've spent a lot of time searching for a proper explanation about the controls and nobody has ever got anywhere close to being this clear. And I include FF representatives at various trade shows and educational meet-ups.

Thanks you so much for lifting the lid on this and I have to say it totally resonates with my real world experience. Very, very much appreciated.

[bmanic]

Wow. Had this plugin for about 5 years and I use it on every track and I've spent a lot of time searching for a proper explanation about the controls and nobody has ever got anywhere close to being this clear. And I include FF representatives at various trade shows and educational meet-ups.

Thanks you so much for lifting the lid on this and I have to say it totally resonates with my real world experience. Very, very much appreciated.

Indeed. Unfortunately it's a bit of a split personality plugin as I was involved too and have very different take on things than Floris and Frederik. My approach to compression/limiting is very different to theirs (and to any other person as it's all subjective).

That's also why the 'Modern' algorithm behaves so differently to the others. A quick little test you can do to see just how strangely (and program dependently) it operates is to do this:

Set attack to around 10ms, release to about 800ms.. now compare look-a-head settings of 0ms, 2ms and 5ms and listen to both the attack and release curves how they change and "breathe" with the music. That's no ordinary look-a-head behavior.

I'm quite proud of what we did achieve, considering how old the core technology of that plugin is. Heck Pro-L, the original that started it all, is now almost 16 years old (!!!!!). We did put a significant amount of R&D into it back then, doing proper double blind testing sessions.

But yeah, there is absolutely no doubt about it. Tone Projects Uni-L is now the absolute king of limiters and will probably remain so for quite some time. I just hope people realize that it's all about the presets when you start out with it. It gives immediate, superior, results to any and all of the competition with an almost "one knob" behavior if you just stick to the presets and tag/re-save your favorites. There is absolutely zero need to go deep into the weeds of the controls. They are there for crazy tweak enthusiasts like Bob Macc.. and me!

[dastewart]

I think your "test", and your description, kind of illustrates my experience with Pro L2. Over the years I've done a few deep dives to really try and understand how the controls work and I've ended up simply frustrated by their lack of predictability and consistency. I don't really like my tools to be a "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma" and that's exactly how Pro L2 behaves for me.

On the flip side, it's never been a problem because I simply set it to its default settings and don't work it too hard. I'm not really looking for too much from my limiter except to make things louder and not be noticeable and, in that respect, it does fine.

I think Uni-L requires a different mindset where I do work it harder but use it to shape the dynamics of the sound in a way that I wouldn't normally bother with. In that regard, I still need to spend more time with Uni-L to see if I can make that happen and end up with a track that sounds better with it than with Pro L2. I'm sure others can do it but if I can't then it's not going to really be of much use to me.

[kraster]

This thing is a beast.

The amount of finessing you can do is unprecedented, imho.

It sounds glorious when you dial it in.

[dionenoid]

nvm

[dermage]

I think your "test", and your description, kind of illustrates my experience with Pro L2. Over the years I've done a few deep dives to really try and understand how the controls work and I've ended up simply frustrated by their lack of predictability and consistency. I don't really like my tools to be a "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma" and that's exactly how Pro L2 behaves for me.

On the flip side, it's never been a problem because I simply set it to its default settings and don't work it too hard. I'm not really looking for too much from my limiter except to make things louder and not be noticeable and, in that respect, it does fine.

I think Uni-L requires a different mindset where I do work it harder but use it to shape the dynamics of the sound in a way that I wouldn't normally bother with. In that regard, I still need to spend more time with Uni-L to see if I can make that happen and end up with a track that sounds better with it than with Pro L2. I'm sure others can do it but if I can't then it's not going to really be of much use to me.

Here have a similar issue with Pro-L2. Although it's on my main template (for catching peaks during production/mixdown) I never got around the parameters, how they react and should change the sound when changed.

Recently I've had more success with Arturia's Bus Peak, which feels easier to setup and gives better results than Pro-L2 even with no additional tweaking.
Uni-L feels in the same league, if not above, even when just choosing presets.
And the controls here at least try to explain themselves
Will dive into Uni-L now, because I really like Tone Projects GUIs, concept and way they do plugins.
Also CPU seems to be a bit lower than Arturia's Bus Peak, but I need to test more on this regard.

And btw: Thanks bmanic for your input here. Very appreciated and worth gold! I may have to revisit Pro-L2 with your tips in mind.

[chagzuki]

I think Uni-L requires a different mindset where I do work it harder but use it to shape the dynamics of the sound in a way that I wouldn't normally bother with. In that regard, I still need to spend more time with Uni-L to see if I can make that happen and end up with a track that sounds better with it than with Pro L2. I'm sure others can do it but if I can't then it's not going to really be of much use to me.

I bought it and have had a couple of days to play with it. I wasn't immediately won over, but am becoming more so. I think this is significantly taking over mastering compression duties for me, in terms of getting the kick to pump to just the right degree... and other jazz. The styles starting page didn't get me there, it took a lot of experimentation to hear how the slow/fast limiter/clipping interact. I don't think it's going to achieve greater loudness particularly, more it allows for control of mix gluing/vibe.