Mark Mothersbaugh on Classic Hardware vs Software Emulations

[dumbledog]

This is what happened to Tangerine Dream. They went from wonderful hypnotic analog soundscapes to pure cheese. Le Parc and Underwater Sunlight were their last good albums.

Aww, I like Raum.

[TechHaus]

I didn't even like the movie "The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou", but those whimsical little rhythms and beats!

[TechHaus]

INow, if you want to talk about the feel of playing an instrument where you turn knobs and slide sliders as opposed to moving a mouse, fine. I get that there might be a certain thrill of getting your hands on a Minimoog. But sound wise? You couldn't tell the difference between a hardware Minimoog and The Legend buried in the mix of a song.

Screenshot_20260605-130200.jpg


That's a SFC-Mini V4. It's a MIDI Controller that I got specifically to use with the Legend HZ. I can also use it with any Minimoog Plugin

Beyond that however I have set it up to work with Omnisphere, UVI Falcon, and dozens of other plugins I own that use Subtractive Synthesis.

So I get the hands on workflow of using a Minimoog, with any subtractive synth so I can make any synth

That of course is designed for Synths with 3 Oscillators so I also have this one

Screenshot_20260605-131624.jpg

This allows me to turn any subtractive synth plugin I own into a single osc Juno style synth with the same hands on workflow

Will be getting the Jupiter 8 version at some point over the next few months for 2 OSC subtractive Synthesis

It's insane fun doing this and totally removes the need for actual hardware, and I still have my own universal custom controller setup for when I want to do that also. The whole point of these are they create deliberate limitations and shoehorn you into certain workflows that create different results than you normally would get

Whoa cool! I was always wondering who buys these. I wanted to get the Pro One version for Repro One. Saw it used before.

But then I convinced myself to build a bunch of templates in my Novation REMote SL's. Makes me happy to move a fader for the envelope form time to time.

[abernathy]

INow, if you want to talk about the feel of playing an instrument where you turn knobs and slide sliders as opposed to moving a mouse, fine. I get that there might be a certain thrill of getting your hands on a Minimoog. But sound wise? You couldn't tell the difference between a hardware Minimoog and The Legend buried in the mix of a song.

Screenshot_20260605-130200.jpg


That's a SFC-Mini V4. It's a MIDI Controller that I got specifically to use with the Legend HZ. I can also use it with any Minimoog Plugin

Beyond that however I have set it up to work with Omnisphere, UVI Falcon, and dozens of other plugins I own that use Subtractive Synthesis.

So I get the hands on workflow of using a Minimoog, with any subtractive synth so I can make any synth

That of course is designed for Synths with 3 Oscillators so I also have this one

Screenshot_20260605-131624.jpg

This allows me to turn any subtractive synth plugin I own into a single osc Juno style synth with the same hands on workflow

Will be getting the Jupiter 8 version at some point over the next few months for 2 OSC subtractive Synthesis

It's insane fun doing this and totally removes the need for actual hardware, and I still have my own universal custom controller setup for when I want to do that also. The whole point of these are they create deliberate limitations and shoehorn you into certain workflows that create different results than you normally would get

Whoa cool! I was always wondering who buys these. I wanted to get the Pro One version for Repro One. Saw it used before.

But then I convinced myself to build a bunch of templates in my Novation REMote SL's. Makes me happy to move a fader for the envelope form time to time.

I bought the SFC-Mini V4 as well. It is awesome. The knobs on the v4 look and feel like a Moog. It has a cool 2-way communication mode with the Arturia Mini V4, but works great with lots of synths.

[knob_monster]

Dedicated layout controllers only feel like real hardware if they support bidirectional midi feedback to prevent parameter jumps when you load a new preset.

[Seafire Mk2]

Screenshot_20260605-130200.jpg


That's a SFC-Mini V4. It's a MIDI Controller that I got specifically to use with the Legend HZ. I can also use it with any Minimoog Plugin

Do you mean Legend? HZ has so much more.

[Vortifex]

This is what happened to Tangerine Dream. They went from wonderful hypnotic analog soundscapes to pure cheese. Le Parc and Underwater Sunlight were their last good albums.

Aww, I like Raum.

Oh the new Tangerine Dream with Thorsten Quaeschning is great. Quantum Gate is a good album too. I was thinking of that period between the late 80s and early 2000s.

[beely]

Dedicated layout controllers only feel like real hardware if they support bidirectional midi feedback to prevent parameter jumps when you load a new preset.

Plenty of real hardware jumped when you recall a preset and the controls are different - that was the norm for the analog stuff back in the day, for example.

I actually prefer the jumps rather than the soft-takeover, because in the latter mode you're turning the knob without anything happening until you "catch" the current parameter, but you don't know which part of the knob the actual value is, so it all becomes a bit hit and miss and I find that annoying.

With jumping to the current knob value, you immediately get a response as soon as you touch the knob, and it's easy enough to get it in the original ballpark if you only wanted to move it a little bit. Personally, I find this much more direct and intuitive to work with.

[machinesworking]

Here's the issue, I think Kraftwerk and Devo are excellent examples of groups that were miles better when they struggled with "crappy" analog gear, they absolutely blew chunks when the digital age hit, and partially it's because they both embraced digital synths right away.

Is it this, or is it because bands usually burn through their good ideas after a handful of albums, or sometimes even a single album? I don't think anyone could say for sure, as there isn't really a way to do an experiment with a control group. Guys like Trent Reznor never really changed their approach that much, and his pop music got fairly stale, even while he was using classic analog and digital hardware. I saw that U2 had a more recent album out, and when I checked out it, they sounded exactly like they've always sounded, but none of the songs were remotely memorable. I actually thought their best stuff was when they got more experimental with their production in the Zooropa era.

Anyway, I just think it's perilous to blame gear on a lack of creativity. I've heard great things made with plugins and crap made with hardware.

Addressing you but Bones said the same thing pretty much. No, I think groups sometimes "upgrade" their sound for obvious reasons, but it gets in the way of their sound. Mark famously hated that analog synths go out of tune, and you can watch a video of them doing Gates of Steel on the show Fridays where his lead synth is badly out of tune. Bones mentions Devo lowering guitars in the mix on later records, that's part of it but for reasons that I think people overlook, guitars are not in tune. the frets themselves create tuning variations. That in turn creates variation within repetition.

It's one of the issues with analog that people hate, but it's also why when it gets recorded well it sits in a mix up front and sounds great. In turn this is why digital synths can be layered for days without mixes turning "mushy". There are great sounding analog VI's there's no doubt, but so many of them fail miserably with more complex timbres, the Cherry audio version of the Memorymoog turns to white noise instead of a grimy distortion when pushed, conversely Cherry's Atomika does get that over amped driven filter sound right.

Gary Numan is pretty great at adopting new tech, but although it was fun to see him play the entirety of The Pleasure Principal live when he did, it was done on workstation synths and even listening live I was really glad he didn't use them in the original recordings. Big fat notes need movement, it's why the "producer" and DJ's took over live electronic dance music, it's a lot of work in a DAW creating automation movement out of static notes.

On the other hand there are no rules, no one should have to deal with out of tune synths or simple sounds, I've been as impressed with a guy playing his songs live in ReNoise on a laptop as I have with a live keyboard player. I just don't think Devo with their tonal big note sound benefited from going into digital in terms of recordings.

[machinesworking]

I never though Kraftwerk were anything but boring krap, so I wouldn't have noticed if they got worse.

Always odd to me when people dismiss them. I think Numbers, Home Computer, Trans Europe Express, More Fun to Compute, The Robots etc. are instrumental in introducing pure Industrial to EBM and Electro Industrial. The influence on front 242 and Nitzer Ebb etc. is pretty obvious. Not to mention Hip Hop.

[D-Fusion]

I have their SFC-5 for Prophet 5 emulations and wanted more but they have gotten so expensive now that it is cheaper to buy a hardware synth than buying one of these when i add in the shipping cost + import taxes and the prices for the vst to use with them.

It would have been awesome if the Behringer modules had Midi cc out since they are a lot cheaper than the SFC controllers.

[IvyBirds]

Screenshot_20260605-130200.jpg


That's a SFC-Mini V4. It's a MIDI Controller that I got specifically to use with the Legend HZ. I can also use it with any Minimoog Plugin

Do you mean Legend? HZ has so much more.

No I mean the Legend HZ. Out of the box it comes preprogrammed with a "Legend HZ Mode"


The Legend HZ has 6 oscialtors instead of the standard 3 on the Minimoog. There is a "shift" switch that allows you to instantly swap between two banks so you can control 1-3 or 4-6. Of course you don't have to use the extra 3 and can just use the first 3 and ignore the extra 3 and have the same functionality as the original Minimoog

The Legend HZ plugin also has a much deeper modmatrix than a standard Minimoog and an extra filter bank. These all can be controlled with the SFC Mini as well if you want, but I have them all programmed to a Novation Launch Control XL MKIII that I run along side the SFC Mini

It's an amazing piece of kit if you like the Minimoog and want Minimoog style controls. I have Omnisphere 3's new Wavetable based VA engine mapped to it as well using the same controls. It's so easy and so much fun making other instruments transform into Minimoogs. Building polyphonic minimoogs with different waveforms from different Synths and different filters is just so darned cool

The Soundforce controllers are a bit in the pricy side at around $400-$600 a pop but they are so handy and fun and can be used across so many plugins thanks to them using standard MIDI CCs that I love them

[Seafire Mk2]

Screenshot_20260605-130200.jpg


That's a SFC-Mini V4. It's a MIDI Controller that I got specifically to use with the Legend HZ. I can also use it with any Minimoog Plugin

Do you mean Legend? HZ has so much more.

No I mean the Legend HZ. Out of the box it comes preprogrammed with a "Legend HZ Mode"


The Legend HZ has 6 oscialtors instead of the standard 3 on the Minimoog. There is a "shift" switch that allows you to instantly swap between two banks so you can control 1-3 or 4-6. If course you don't have to use the extra 3 and can just use the first 3 and ignore the extra 3 and have the same functionality as the original Minimoog

The Legend HZ plugin also has a much deeper modmatrix than a standard Minimoog and an extra filter bank. These all can be controlled with the SFC Mini as well if you want, but I have them all programmed to a Novation Launch Control XL MKIII that I run along side the SFC Mini

It's an amazing piece of kit if you like the Minimoog and want Minimoog style controls. I have Omnisphere 3's new Wavetable based VA engine mapped to it as well using the same controls. It's so easy and so much fun making other instruments transform into Minimoogs. Building polyphonic minimoogs with different waveforms from different Synths and different filters is just so darned cool

Interesting. I would have said it was too basic to control the HZ version based on first impressions. Is it, once set up, much easier/more pleasant to use than a mouse? I guess it depends on if you use it for performance vs sound design/tweak

[IvyBirds]

nteresting. I would have said it was too basic to control the HZ version based on first impressions. Is it, once set up, much easier/more pleasant to use than a mouse? I guess it depends on if you use it for performance vs sound design/tweak

I only use it for sound design and tweaking in my home studio, at the gig on the stage I use different controllers.

I use a lot of Minimoog sounds in the bands I play in and really like the sound of the Legend HZ

[zerocrossing]

Here's the issue, I think Kraftwerk and Devo are excellent examples of groups that were miles better when they struggled with "crappy" analog gear, they absolutely blew chunks when the digital age hit, and partially it's because they both embraced digital synths right away.

Is it this, or is it because bands usually burn through their good ideas after a handful of albums, or sometimes even a single album? I don't think anyone could say for sure, as there isn't really a way to do an experiment with a control group. Guys like Trent Reznor never really changed their approach that much, and his pop music got fairly stale, even while he was using classic analog and digital hardware. I saw that U2 had a more recent album out, and when I checked out it, they sounded exactly like they've always sounded, but none of the songs were remotely memorable. I actually thought their best stuff was when they got more experimental with their production in the Zooropa era.

Anyway, I just think it's perilous to blame gear on a lack of creativity. I've heard great things made with plugins and crap made with hardware.

Addressing you but Bones said the same thing pretty much. No, I think groups sometimes "upgrade" their sound for obvious reasons, but it gets in the way of their sound. Mark famously hated that analog synths go out of tune, and you can watch a video of them doing Gates of Steel on the show Fridays where his lead synth is badly out of tune. Bones mentions Devo lowering guitars in the mix on later records, that's part of it but for reasons that I think people overlook, guitars are not in tune. the frets themselves create tuning variations. That in turn creates variation within repetition.

It's one of the issues with analog that people hate, but it's also why when it gets recorded well it sits in a mix up front and sounds great. In turn this is why digital synths can be layered for days without mixes turning "mushy". There are great sounding analog VI's there's no doubt, but so many of them fail miserably with more complex timbres, the Cherry audio version of the Memorymoog turns to white noise instead of a grimy distortion when pushed, conversely Cherry's Atomika does get that over amped driven filter sound right.

Gary Numan is pretty great at adopting new tech, but although it was fun to see him play the entirety of The Pleasure Principal live when he did, it was done on workstation synths and even listening live I was really glad he didn't use them in the original recordings. Big fat notes need movement, it's why the "producer" and DJ's took over live electronic dance music, it's a lot of work in a DAW creating automation movement out of static notes.

On the other hand there are no rules, no one should have to deal with out of tune synths or simple sounds, I've been as impressed with a guy playing his songs live in ReNoise on a laptop as I have with a live keyboard player. I just don't think Devo with their tonal big note sound benefited from going into digital in terms of recordings.

I think that they can both be out of musical ideas, and also move to sound sources that don't support the ideas they have. I saw Thomas Dolby in a small club once, and he was all digital and a lot of it was plugins running of a pair of Apple G5 desktops. He sounded great, but more importantly, he was playing great songs.

I think this points to something that we don't talk about that much, as it's a bit embarrassing, but a lot of us, myself included, probably lean on cool sounds a bit more than we rely on good compositions. People like Deadmau5 have made a nice living off that concept, and his music always sounds like preset sales demos. I'd say as an artist, Mark stayed relevant because his music became based on the composition and not the sound set. Of course, good sounds are the icing on the cake, but few people want a scoop of pure icing. The Boards Of Canada just released a new album, and I think it's fantastic on both counts, but some people seem to hate it because it doesn't sound exactly like their past stuff. It is a bit more lush, for sure, but I personally think that supports the music.

I'm not saying that anyone should change their stance on any of this. Who really cares what you make your music with? Does anyone listen to any of it? The closest thing to someone who made a lot of hits that I've interacted with on the internet is Charlie Clouser from NIN, and he's just as happy to use Arturia's Prophet VS plugin, as he is his hardware Sequential Prophet VS. Why is BONES even commenting on this? Didn't he offload his music making to AI? It's all very silly, considering you're lucky if your music gets listened to, and when it does, it's probably on some Bluetooth ear buds that a kid bought at their local drug store. I'm all here for the hardware analog users circle jerk, but let's not pretend it's not that. Pass the lotion!