Not that that necesesarily leads to good music. For instance Paul McCartney's "Liverpool Oratorium". It sounds like classical music to the unwashed masses, but it's really third rate. He wrote much better music when he whistled the horn solo in "For no one" so that George Martin could write it out. Brilliant line.McLilith wrote:Also common, is someone who emulates music they have already been exposed to, without understanding the underlying "rules" behind that music.
Rant on music theory ignorance.
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- KVRAF
- 2830 posts since 2 Mar, 2003 from The only civilized county in Texas
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
It's also quite likely that they know they are doing something "conventional" or "acceptable" in music theory, but they just don't know the name for it, and quite possibly don't care too much about finding out. For some people and for some purposes, it's quite enough to be able to do something, even if you don't have a conventionally accepted lexicon to describe it with. For some, the act is what's important, and all the nomenclature and theories aren't terribly relevant at all.tee boy wrote:Im sure you get the point. People who disregard the practices of western music often use them without knowing it.
Don't misunderstand, learning theory is fine, if you want to do it. It's just not for everyone, and it's not a requirement for creating something interesting and memorable. Quite often, people with much education only manage to very accurately compose or play very bland, soulless music. I once saw the "world's 7th greatest pianist" (or his sign said something to that effect). He very accurately played some of the most lifeless and boring music I have ever heard.
All those years of education and training, just to play some of the most boring music I have ever heard? What's the point in that? Unfortunately, this happens to several "educated" musicians. Certainly not all, but it does happen. Many musicians get so wrapped up in the rules and the technical nuances, that I think they lose sight of the larger picture. That, I think, is what some people who don't religiously pursue theory are hoping to avoid.take care,
McLilith
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
That said, I also agree that the attitude of "refusing to learn theory" can also be just a pretentious cop-out. I suppose it depends on your true reasons and your degree of honesty about it all.
McLilith
McLilith
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- KVRist
- 271 posts since 13 Aug, 2002 from Knowhere, Texas
I've always found it of value to be of two minds. One is the jamming frame I get into where I want to say something musical, and I work it out. The other is the analytical mind that uses theory to 'sew' the peices I've laid out together. There is no such thing as bad knowledge. The only way theory can hurt you, is if you let it. The people I know who are the most bored with their music, and continually play in a rut, know little to nothing about theory.
It is possible to be a success and know very little theory. James Hetfield and Cevin Key are two people that have made a career, and knew little to no theory. Of course James eventually took theory lessons, and released Load.
It was Steve Vai who said-Learn as much theory as you can, then forget it.
I always felt like that was about as close to the mark as it gets.
It is possible to be a success and know very little theory. James Hetfield and Cevin Key are two people that have made a career, and knew little to no theory. Of course James eventually took theory lessons, and released Load.
It was Steve Vai who said-Learn as much theory as you can, then forget it.
I always felt like that was about as close to the mark as it gets.
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- KVRAF
- 2844 posts since 1 Jan, 2003
Theory is also about communication, a point that gets lost in the "loner in the bedroom making beats" age in which we live. If you play with other human beings, some basic theoretical knowledge is required. I am tired of playing with musicians who stare blankly when I say Amb5, and play an A power chord as if it would do. I am tired of walking over to where the guitarist is standing and actually placing his/her fingers on the frets.
I spent THREE HOURS last Friday with a pianist that plays well, definitely has a good feel for music but could not understand, and therefore could not remember and repeat, the chord progression to f**king "Moon River" for a Mancini cover compilation. Three hours learning something that, with a basic understanding of triads, should have taken 10 minutes.
There are musicians who make incredible music without understanding any theory, but there are far more bar bands, bedroom beat makers, and acoustic guitar strummers who could be so much more if they cared just a little.
I spent THREE HOURS last Friday with a pianist that plays well, definitely has a good feel for music but could not understand, and therefore could not remember and repeat, the chord progression to f**king "Moon River" for a Mancini cover compilation. Three hours learning something that, with a basic understanding of triads, should have taken 10 minutes.
There are musicians who make incredible music without understanding any theory, but there are far more bar bands, bedroom beat makers, and acoustic guitar strummers who could be so much more if they cared just a little.
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- KVRAF
- 6596 posts since 21 Jun, 2004 from Secret Underground Hideout
that's me. i'm not trying to be an "all around musician". i just play what my brain tells me toMcLilith wrote:It's also quite likely that they know they are doing something "conventional" or "acceptable" in music theory, but they just don't know the name for it, and quite possibly don't care too much about finding out. For some people and for some purposes, it's quite enough to be able to do something, even if you don't have a conventionally accepted lexicon to describe it with. For some, the act is what's important, and all the nomenclature and theories aren't terribly relevant at all.
i mentioned sonic youth because of the experimentation that lead to daydream nation
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- KVRAF
- 6596 posts since 21 Jun, 2004 from Secret Underground Hideout
as far as communicating in bands. i just hand out the parts. for improvisation we just discuss what sounds good and what doesn't. if it hasn't been tried, we just hum the idea
i like to rock and "make beats" i think jazz and classical are funny at best
i like to rock and "make beats" i think jazz and classical are funny at best
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
are you sure it's your brain?...no I'm not being a wise-ass...seriously, the brain may be part of the equation, perhaps the interpretter (I guess in which case it would be telling you what to do)...but I feel the source comes from elsewhere...for me that place is mine and all mine...it's utopia...androidlove wrote:that's me. i'm not trying to be an "all around musician". i just play what my brain tells me toMcLilith wrote:It's also quite likely that they know they are doing something "conventional" or "acceptable" in music theory, but they just don't know the name for it, and quite possibly don't care too much about finding out. For some people and for some purposes, it's quite enough to be able to do something, even if you don't have a conventionally accepted lexicon to describe it with. For some, the act is what's important, and all the nomenclature and theories aren't terribly relevant at all.
i mentioned sonic youth because of the experimentation that lead to daydream nation
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 6596 posts since 21 Jun, 2004 from Secret Underground Hideout
if yer not thinkin with yer brain what ARE ya thinkin with?
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
A friend of mine was in the same Jazz Improvisation class at San Francisco State University with Kirk Hammett.ResonantOrder wrote: It is possible to be a success and know very little theory. James Hetfield and Cevin Key are two people that have made a career, and knew little to no theory. Of course James eventually took theory lessons, and released Load.
So, to summarize this topic: The initial poster said that theory is important, and the people who think theory is a bad thing are wrong. And for the next 4 pages, we've all agreed with him.
Oh, and we all agree that some people can make good or bad music with or without formal training in music theory. Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 6596 posts since 21 Jun, 2004 from Secret Underground Hideout
the extent of my theory - lookin at a piano roll and i think "this note needs to be moved up"
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
that's just it my friend...when I got the axe strapped on I want as little think as possible...I'm not sure I relate playing to thinking...it's expressing...but the expression comes from a very non-traditional source...in fact often I feel as if I'm the instrument...androidlove wrote:if yer not thinkin with yer brain what ARE ya thinkin with?
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 6596 posts since 21 Jun, 2004 from Secret Underground Hideout
dude, it's still yer brain
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- KVRAF
- 2844 posts since 1 Jan, 2003
"as far as communicating in bands. i just hand out the parts."
Without using any theory, how would you accomplish that? Are the parts written, do you mention the chord names? Do you hum every part, do you mime them, do an interpretive dance? Do you just hope the guitarist and the bass player are playing in the same key, or would you be happy if they played in B and Bb at the same time? Does the drummer know the tempo (also basic theory) and time signature, or does everyone play any chords, or in any key, any time signature, at any tempo, all at once, and if so, why bother playing with other musicians in the first place?
I'm just guessing, but I'd bet you do use theory to communicate your ideas to other musicians. If knowing what an A major chord means when played on a guitar hasn't hurt your creativity thus far, why be afraid of understanding more?
Without using any theory, how would you accomplish that? Are the parts written, do you mention the chord names? Do you hum every part, do you mime them, do an interpretive dance? Do you just hope the guitarist and the bass player are playing in the same key, or would you be happy if they played in B and Bb at the same time? Does the drummer know the tempo (also basic theory) and time signature, or does everyone play any chords, or in any key, any time signature, at any tempo, all at once, and if so, why bother playing with other musicians in the first place?
I'm just guessing, but I'd bet you do use theory to communicate your ideas to other musicians. If knowing what an A major chord means when played on a guitar hasn't hurt your creativity thus far, why be afraid of understanding more?
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
yeah I suppose...but if you were to walk in on me while I was playing...or watching me at a show...you would see I'm in an alter state of conscience, which I must concede is the brain...androidlove wrote:dude, it's still yer brain
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.