KVR Audio

farlukar · Post by **farlukar** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:41 pm

nocompromise wrote:here here

rpc9943 · Post by **rpc9943** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:58 pm

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

politics crap.
world is dying crap.

most rap is just boring spoken word over bassy beats that anyone could make in 5 mins on fruity loops

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

then again i prefer music with notes and instruments. its not to say hip hop stuff brings in some nice sounds here and there but the feel of it... ugh. If there were some more out-there experimental hip hop where its not just rap rap rap rap rap bullcrap maybe I'd give it the light of day. Maybe.

RonC

ermi · Post by **ermi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:58 pm

Saying rap is just about bling bling is just like saying pop-dance-rock is just about sexuality (in a more or less explicit way, of course). If you listen to the pop stuff on radio/tv all you hear is that.

It's not that back in the 80s rap was radically different, or of better quality. It's just that there were less types of rap, basically either the "revolutionary" ghetto stuff or the "party-funky" stuff...
Now you have gangsta, r'n'b-ish, psycho, party, (STILL, I swear!, some) revolutionary, intellectual, ...

But on tv/radio you'll hear always the same sh't. That goes for all the genres, I guess.

There goes another mainstream song most of you probably didn't hear yet... "I love you" by The Diplomats (prod. by The Heatmakerz):
http://users.volja.net/neres/iloveyou.mp3

I like this song a lot. Not because of the semi-retarded (sorry Juelz, Cam) gangstish lyrics, but the song is simply powerful (at least the first part where Juelz Santana is rapping). (And it doesn't have a boring hook, like 99% of the songs. Why you need a hook, anyway?)
Put on that beat any other intellectual rapper (which I might like a lot otherwise) and he'll ruin the song. I'm saying that lyrical content is not all that matters in rap.
I guess I can live with "dumb" lyrics also because english is not my native language, so I take a little distance from it.
And, again, back in the 80s (till Rakim...), the lyrics (and music) were much more simple than today.

ermi · Post by **ermi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:02 pm

Another thing: I see that in the USA you are much more tortured by the hiphop style all the time, from everywhere... it's not like this in Europe.

I just hate it when I hear some talent-less people rapping or so (maybe in a rock song), just to seem more hip/cool. It's pathetic, IMHO.

Bunnyboy · Post by **Bunnyboy** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:10 pm

rpc9943 wrote:If there were some more out-there experimental hip hop where its not just rap rap rap rap rap bullcrap maybe I'd give it the light of day. Maybe.

http://www.anticon.com

http://www.definitivejux.net

cptgone · Post by **cptgone** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:11 pm

With Duffy Duck, Terminator X and Kool Keith all firmly under my telepathic control I now proceed to phase II of my devious plan <Muhahhahhha>

Bluezplayer_AJ · Post by **Bluezplayer_AJ** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:12 pm

When it comes down to it, yes I'm predominantly white ( well you might not believe that looking at me but that's fodder for another forum ), but that has little to do with it anyway. Led Zep, Pink Floyd, ELP, BB King, Marvin Gaye ( amongst many others ), may ( or may not ) have sang about some questionable issues at times, but they never spoke to me about gangsta's and ho's, or smokin some a..hole that needed it. We have enough movie "heroes" that did that ( fodder for another forum )

Even Layne Staley, as messed up as he was, never sang about his addictions like they were positive things. He sang a lot about them, but anyone who saw him could easily see physically how messed up and uncomfortable he was, and AIC's lyrics reflected it.

In fact many of the songs from bands I like had no real message at all, and the music was entertaining to me. That's my take on it, and what I feel when I listen.

The answer to the original question is that Rap doesn't say anything that I want to hear. At least not what I've heard of it. Maybe I'm missing the "good stuff " ? lol. What I hear and see is all the same videos, the ones that have the Benz, Rolls, the swimming pools, the high life, the bitches and ho's and gangasta / wannabes dancing in the street.

What I really see is corporate fueled crap and an unrealistic and often unattainable lifestyle that they market to our kids, but mainly to kids who are already at a disadvantage due to social status and who really need to learn real skills that will help them in the real world. I don't know that anyone can fix the problems of social status, especially musicians, lord knows many folks have claimed to try, but I doubt that the crap being marketed at the kids helps at all. I happen to think btw that it's always been an industry fueled by corporate crap, back to the time when the king tried to control what Mozart wanted to play, and probably before that. The perception for me though is that the message has become to angry and abusive and more dangerous.

My bandmates and my closest friends range from white to Native American to black, and from what we've discussed, it doesn't speak to any of them either. It turns us off. There is little musical structure to most of it, not much to think about if we actually wanted to play it, and we don't relate to most of the storylines.

There isn't any wrong or right answer to something like this anyway, it's all just personal perspective. Mine just happens to come from me, and is based on my experiences and beliefs.

snooky · Post by **snooky** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:21 pm

I don't like rap/hiphop because of the insanely stupid lingo..."Wot U mean doodZ ..yeah wazzup in da hizhouze..yaddayaddayadda"
and also (this is something that dance music of all generes in general have incommon) the extreme womanising and sex abuse..it's SICKENING!

I hate that..you might as well watch hardcore german porn or the latest hiphop video..it's all about the money..it's discusting and vile and has a rotten stench of abuse around it...so does all pop music...it's all rotten to the core, and rap is the worst.

androidlove · Post by **androidlove** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:23 pm

i'll just tell ya what i like
rap - rob zombie, beastie boys, kid rock, rage against the machine
hip hop - the 70's stuff

z15 · Post by **z15** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:28 pm

Bluezplayer_AJ wrote:Still, I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone might believe that the Sex Pistols would be similar to Keyboard driven Progressive acts like Yes or ELP, or either of those similar to bands like Metallica. All have their place, though I'm not a huge fan of much of the punk genres. Maybe it's that way with old hip hop and today's versions ?

that's exactly what i mean. as always, there's more than one side to the thing.

on one hand, even yes and sex pistols are completely different beasts, so to say... and punk with its "we can't play but we're having fun so f**k you"-attitude was in some part a counterreaction to prog rock's virtuoso playing and extended form songs which some thought as a mindless wankery.

but the two styles still originate from the same source. you could see both of them as two different branches of a tree whose roots are somewhere around the likes of chuck berry or elvis. they've just grown somewhat far from each others but you could still say they belong to the tree that people call rock.

same thing with hiphop. you have 50 cent with all the synthesized beats and gangsta/blingbling lyrics, rjd2 with his masterful sample collages and inventive mc guests, cLOUDDEAd with their shady abstract ambient poetry, quasimoto with the awesomely cool lo-fi samplery and surreal lyrics sung thru a pitchshifter, the roots playing live beats and rapping conscious lyrics, nas with the more classic beats and thoughtful tales from the ghetto and a great storytelling ability... need i go on? they could still all be labeled "hiphop" or "rap" even you can't find much common with 50 cent and cLOUDDEAd.

so on the other hand all the subgenres HAVE grown quite far from each others whether it be rock or hiphop or whatever... so even though you could say it's been "rock" all along from the '50s to the present moment, there are simply so many influences and turns taken that it doesn't tell much to say something is "rock". same thing with hiphop, it nails some basic things but doesn't tell the whole truth. calling pink floyd and limp bizkit "rock" is like calling cannibal ox and busta rhymes "hiphop".

but for me the worst being that I don't wanna hear a well thought out Led Zeppelin / Motown tune defaced by some foul mouthed person who probably couldn't play an instrument if his life depended on it, much less come up with a couple of his own chord progressions or melodies.

part of hiphop has always been about sampling and recycling. while there are plenty of producers and bands that don't rely on samples at all and can write killer songs, it's still a big part of the culture. the beats are often seen as just something that gets your head nodding or ass moving and supports the lyricist - sort of like songs in hardcore punk that sometimes seem like excuses for the vocalist to get the message across and people to unleash their rage or something similar.

actually, rick rubin once said that everything he likes is punk - and hiphop is black punk. it was originally about partying, later about getting a political message across and nowadays it can be pretty much anything.

so the straight loop-style sampling could be seen as a similar thing as, say, garage rock - it's still been done and it's not gone out of fashion at all but ultimately it's an invention that isn't new at all, sort of retro. hiphop is a worldwide style and it's not only the black people in us ghettos doing it - there are inevitably as many kinds of beats and many kinds of talents as there are people. again, listen to some music by cLOUDDEAd or cannibal ox and compare it to the hiphop you've heard on the charts or any oldskool hiphop tune you know. you might be surprised.

OTOH, while making a beat with a motown sample and some drums doesn't seem hard at all, it actually takes pretty much talent to keep it that simple and still groovin' - much like making a three chord garage rock tune that sounds good is damn hard. i don't consider myself a good musician but i've been playing and composing something like 8-9 years now and i have to say that making a good, simple and effective hiphop beat that isn't cheesy or boring is quite a task. people like dj premier (one of the top producers of that style) are actually talented, no matter how it might seem. at least i consider them really talented.

whew, quite a long post - hope my thought stayed on track and you get what i'm trying to tell.

cptgone · Post by **cptgone** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:35 pm

snooky wrote:you might as well watch hardcore german porn or the latest hiphop video [...] it's discusting and vile and has a rotten stench

got a link?

CypherOne · Post by **CypherOne** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:39 pm

Bunnyboy wrote:
rpc9943 wrote:If there were some more out-there experimental hip hop where its not just rap rap rap rap rap bullcrap maybe I'd give it the light of day. Maybe.
http://www.anticon.com

http://www.definitivejux.net

Aesop Rock, erm, rocks

z15 · Post by **z15** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:53 pm

Bluezplayer_AJ wrote:What I hear and see is all the same videos, the ones that have the Benz, Rolls, the swimming pools, the high life, the bitches and ho's and gangasta / wannabes dancing in the street.
---
What I really see is corporate fueled crap and an unrealistic and often unattainable lifestyle that they they market to our kids, but mainly to kids who are already at a disadvantage due to social status and who really need to learn real skills that will help them in the real world.

that's just what i mean. hiphop is in fashion in the materialistic over-commercialized world so obviously that side of the music is in the charts since it sells, makes the advertisers happy and whatever. labels get more bucks for a few tight asses shaking on the video.

on the other hand, listen to something like the swedish rapper promoe's album "long distance runner" for example... practically the whole album is against power of corporations, against globalization done wrong, against police states and fear of your neighbours. and for worldwide understanding, consciousness and love. that's just one example among many.

every trend has a countertrend. with hiphop we have the popular artists and lots of thugs and gangstas womanizing, showing off their cars and bling and generally promoting f**ked up (sorry) culture. some people take them with humour, sort of like action movies, some people say that what they're doing is just crap and wrong... and some people (unfortunately) take them seriously. on the other hand, we have socially conscious artists who promote world peace, good vibes and despise the gangstas and so called "playaz".

and of course there is countless other styles, lines of thought or whatever... like the "just artists" or "musicians" who don't have any political agenda and just prefer to make killer music, tell stories and spread the music love.

snooky wrote:I don't like rap/hiphop because of the insanely stupid lingo..."Wot U mean doodZ ..yeah wazzup in da hizhouze..yaddayaddayadda"
and also (this is something that dance music of all generes in general have incommon) the extreme womanising and sex abuse..it's SICKENING!
--
it's discusting and vile and has a rotten stench of abuse around it...so does all pop music...it's all rotten to the core, and rap is the worst.

once again: mainstream hiphop IS. NOT. the whole thing. if i went saying that rock sucks since mainstream artists like limp bizkit and linkin park do boring overproduced songs, would you accept it?

lots of pop music IS rotten, overcommercialized and to my mind gives wrong messages to people and brainwashes 'em... and lots of it is hiphop. but that doesn't mean that hiphop is rotten. just keep on searching, please.

AndrewSimon · Post by **AndrewSimon** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:58 pm

Rap is like Reggae and Blues, if you put one song on the album it is very cool but if the entire album is Rap ,Reggae or Blues I get bored after 2 songs.

ermi · Post by **ermi** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:08 pm

What zion15 said. I agree a lot.

And I was also about to mention DJ Premier as an example to those who complain about sampling and simple tunes. He always does things in the same style, in a very simple way, yet 99% of his beats are extremely good/creative.
If you think that's easy, go ahead do it. You'll get some easy money + I'll be entertained.

AndrewSimon: Yeah that happens to me as well, sometimes. Maybe it's because of a lacking knowledge about a certain style, maybe just a bad CD or maybe something else (taste, whatever...).

Why don't you like rap/hiphop ?