Ableton Live 9 announced

[penguinfromdeep]

That's a very good reply Justin. I didn't really pay attention to this until recently, since actually a LOT of the modern high quality plug-ins introduce latency ... And when you have a lot of them in the mix it can wreak havoc. Some of the modern cool plug-ins that I like (circuit modeled of course) introduce a lot of latency by default like the Slate VTM ... And I think this trend is growing, modern plug-ins that mimic hardware just introduce some latency to attain the best possible sound quality and we just have to live with that.

[billcarroll]

Not fixing the PDC would be a HUGE mistake. more and more people are becoming aware of it. if they are not fixing it.. I would guess not enough people have complained.. YET

Unfortunately, the only people who seem to really know about this issue right now are the ones who have either A. experienced it themselves, or B. read about it on a site like this.

Public awareness isn't high enough, it must be raised to the point where this issue is known well beyond forums like KVR and Gearslutz. Maybe Ableton will start giving a shit when a good portion of their userbase is threatening to switch.

I think a lot of people just don't notice. Heck, it's taken me a while to figure it out because I didn't have a name for it, and didn't understand the cause.

One of the common issues for me is using NI Maschine in Ableton, and building a beat. Then I load up some instruments and start building a track. At some point I begin to notice the drums are not quite in time. The more the project grows, the more apparent this becomes.

Yesterday I decided to download the full Cubase 6.5 trial. I bought an eLicenser last week so I could try out the Vengeance Multiband Sidechain tool (which is pretty damn awesome). Anyway, I downloaded Cubase 6.5 and went to town last night and today.

Always nice not being able to find my a$$ with either hand, but after a few hours of learning curve with Cubase, I decided to build a project in Ableton Live 8, Cubase 6.5, and Logic 9.1.8. I used Maschine, Virus TI Snow, and Trillian as plugins. No panning, same exact presets and midi files, same volumes. All projects at 88.2.

The results really surprised me. Cubase sounded better to my ears. Clearly better than Ableton. Maschine was tight and exactly in time with Cubase, bass sounded better, and so did the Virus. I've spent the day today going back and forth testing over and over again, and Cubase has really surprised the crap out of me. Cubase is seriously tight and clear.

Logic came in second in terms of sound and overall tightness with Maschine, and then came Ableton. Ableton Live sounded less clear overall, and Maschine was not quite in time.

I believe PDC and keeping everything perfectly in time plays a big role in one DAW sounding better than another, and Cubase has nailed this. I was expecting Logic to be a clear winner overall, and even though the margin is much narrower than vs Ableton Live, to my ears Cubase came out on top. I'd be interested to test against Pro Tools too just for the fun of it.

Armin van Buuren, Hanz Zimmer, and many other big name producers have stated publicly that they hear a difference in sound quality between DAWs. I think they are right, and PDC just might be a big culprit, especially with Live's sound.

I had never considered purchasing Cubase until now. The Cubase sound is simply transparent.

Argue, cry, get angry, say it ain't so ... but do your own testing. I trust my ears, and they have spoken for me

[hibidy]

Well, in this case there is simply the one send which is just ubermod. Even "ping pong delay" is a bit wonky. It's just not tight like if in the effect chain.

Anyways, there shouldn't be ANY problem. If it's PDC, doesn't that mean plugin delay compensation, as it should be COMPENSATED?

[milosh_]

I love lo-fi
That's why I use ableton
It's unique DAW.
Live is just different and maybe not for everyone.

[hibidy]

Seems to be for me. I've probably put 30 hours into it since Sunday and a) it works (a couple of crashes, nothing major) and b) it does what I want for the most part. AND that's just with live lite.

Again, I must take this time to thank ableton for making the x64 version and allowing ALL live 8 users access. This is really nice to have something that works w/o the limitations of single core like maschine (which would have been fine IF it was multicore!)

BTW. What a disappointment "launchpad" was. I mean, not velocity sensitive? Sheesh! I mean, I didn't expect it to be the worlds greatest controller.........but NOT velocity sensitive?

[colinssx]

Not fixing the PDC would be a HUGE mistake. more and more people are becoming aware of it. if they are not fixing it.. I would guess not enough people have complained.. YET

Unfortunately, the only people who seem to really know about this issue right now are the ones who have either A. experienced it themselves, or B. read about it on a site like this.

Public awareness isn't high enough, it must be raised to the point where this issue is known well beyond forums like KVR and Gearslutz. Maybe Ableton will start giving a shit when a good portion of their userbase is threatening to switch.

I think a lot of people just don't notice. Heck, it's taken me a while to figure it out because I didn't have a name for it, and didn't understand the cause.

...

Thank you for this incredibly informative post. Sounds like I may have to think twice about switching from Logic to Live unless Ableton can get this sorted out (free upgrade to Live 9 either way so oh well). It's a real shame because I found Logic's workflow to be awful and slow in a lot of ways, especially compared to Live.

I might have considered Cubase if it weren't for that damn eLicenser dongle, as someone who switches between computers quite a bit I absolutely cannot stand the idea of having to rely on a piece of hardware to use the software I buy.

[hibidy]

yeah, for me live isn't the final product, it's a really good sketchpad. But yeah, frackin' abe's......fix the damn thing

[sockofgold]

...

Argue, cry, get angry, say it ain't so ... but do your own testing. I trust my ears, and they have spoken for me

Come on now, you can't make that big post about it and then not post the results. Let's hear them!

[billcarroll]

...

Argue, cry, get angry, say it ain't so ... but do your own testing. I trust my ears, and they have spoken for me

Come on now, you can't make that big post about it and then not post the results. Let's hear them!

I don't mind posting some audio. I did a bunch of exporting for my own testing.

What sort of audio export would you like? I hate to dither and add an extra layer of ... whatever. I could do exports from all 3 DAWs at 24/88.2 and then post the files for download or something like that. Any preference or consensus?

[sl1914]

blind test - don't tell which file is made with which DAW

[hibidy]

Not fixing the PDC would be a HUGE mistake. more and more people are becoming aware of it. if they are not fixing it.. I would guess not enough people have complained.. YET

Unfortunately, the only people who seem to really know about this issue right now are the ones who have either A. experienced it themselves, or B. read about it on a site like this.

Public awareness isn't high enough, it must be raised to the point where this issue is known well beyond forums like KVR and Gearslutz. Maybe Ableton will start giving a shit when a good portion of their userbase is threatening to switch.

I think a lot of people just don't notice. Heck, it's taken me a while to figure it out because I didn't have a name for it, and didn't understand the cause.

One of the common issues for me is using NI Maschine in Ableton, and building a beat. Then I load up some instruments and start building a track. At some point I begin to notice the drums are not quite in time. The more the project grows, the more apparent this becomes.

Yesterday I decided to download the full Cubase 6.5 trial. I bought an eLicenser last week so I could try out the Vengeance Multiband Sidechain tool (which is pretty damn awesome). Anyway, I downloaded Cubase 6.5 and went to town last night and today.

Always nice not being able to find my a$$ with either hand, but after a few hours of learning curve with Cubase, I decided to build a project in Ableton Live 8, Cubase 6.5, and Logic 9.1.8. I used Maschine, Virus TI Snow, and Trillian as plugins. No panning, same exact presets and midi files, same volumes. All projects at 88.2.

The results really surprised me. Cubase sounded better to my ears. Clearly better than Ableton. Maschine was tight and exactly in time with Cubase, bass sounded better, and so did the Virus. I've spent the day today going back and forth testing over and over again, and Cubase has really surprised the crap out of me. Cubase is seriously tight and clear.

Logic came in second in terms of sound and overall tightness with Maschine, and then came Ableton. Ableton Live sounded less clear overall, and Maschine was not quite in time.

I believe PDC and keeping everything perfectly in time plays a big role in one DAW sounding better than another, and Cubase has nailed this. I was expecting Logic to be a clear winner overall, and even though the margin is much narrower than vs Ableton Live, to my ears Cubase came out on top. I'd be interested to test against Pro Tools too just for the fun of it.

Armin van Buuren, Hanz Zimmer, and many other big name producers have stated publicly that they hear a difference in sound quality between DAWs. I think they are right, and PDC just might be a big culprit, especially with Live's sound.

I had never considered purchasing Cubase until now. The Cubase sound is simply transparent.

Argue, cry, get angry, say it ain't so ... but do your own testing. I trust my ears, and they have spoken for me

I've driven myself crazy with all of this.

@cubase/maschine: That is what NI uses as an example. Reaper and sonar DO NOT do well with maschine and live is ok once you jump through a couple hoops. But it's not like cubase. Cubase, you load it up and go iirc.

[hibidy]

Oh, @test. I'm not one of the sonic police. I'm open to whatever.

[sockofgold]

...

Argue, cry, get angry, say it ain't so ... but do your own testing. I trust my ears, and they have spoken for me

Come on now, you can't make that big post about it and then not post the results. Let's hear them!

I don't mind posting some audio. I did a bunch of exporting for my own testing.

What sort of audio export would you like? I hate to dither and add an extra layer of ... whatever. I could do exports from all 3 DAWs at 24/88.2 and then post the files for download or something like that. Any preference or consensus?

I'm with hibidy--I am really not going to get all snobby on you for whatever you post, so just do whatever you think sounds best. I just want to hear what you are hearing, so as long as what you provide convinces your ears, I will be happy.

And as sl1914 said, please don't mention which comes from which DAW.

I am doing my own little test now as well because I really curious about all of this. Look forward to hearing it!

[KBKB]

I am personally this angry about the LIVE 9 no PDC insult.

ABLETON LIVE being a "NON-PROFESSIONAL product NOT BEING FIXED"

In order for the BAD to be BAD it takes the GOOD to keep their mouth shut.

people have the right to be angry if they buy a faulty product.

I'm campaigning for a sticker on the box saying "PDC WARNING Live does not sequence all information in time" (any "non-fanboy" graphic designers out there)

--------

PDC

- Play some music
- jam some automation ........
- add a few plugs
- oh no everything is all out of time a rubbish

PDC take 2

- Play some music
- add a few plugs with tempo sync (like a filter with LFO)........
- add another plug...
- oh no everything is all out of time a rubbish

=====

16.5 Device Delay Compensation
Live automatically compensates for delays caused by Live and plug-in instruments and
effects, including those on the return tracks. These delays can arise from the time taken by
devices to process an input signal and output a result. The compensation algorithm keeps
Live's tracks in sync while minimizing delay between the player's actions and the audible
result.

CHAPTER 16. WORKING WITH INSTRUMENTS AND EFFECTS 229
Note: there are a few situations in which Live cannot compensate for plug-in delay:
• Automation is not delay compensated. As a result, when using automation on tracks
that contain devices that cause delays, the automation may sound early.
• Tempo-synced effects and other devices that get timing information from Live's internal
clock may sound out of sync if they are placed in a device chain after devices which
cause delay.
Device delay compensation is on by default and does not normally have to be adjusted
in any way. However, Live Sets that were created with Live 4 or earlier will open without
device delay compensation. To manually turn latency compensation on (or off), use the
Delay Compensation option in the Options menu.
Unusually high individual track delays or reported latencies from plug-ins may cause noticeable
sluggishness in the software. If you are having latency-related difculties while
recording and playing back instruments, you may want to try turning off device delay compensation,
however this is not normally recommended. You may also nd that adjusting the
individual track delays is useful in these cases, but please note that the Track Delay controls
are unavailable when device delay compensation is deactivated.
Note that device delay compensation can, depending on the number of tracks and devices
in use, increase the CPU load.

[justin3am]

On the topic of PDC issues in Live: I think there is actually more than one issue, each have their own symptoms but they can all manifest in similar ways. I only described one of these issues. There is also the problem of the non-linear delay introduced by the anti-aliasing filters when using the EQ in high-quality mode (this is supposed to be fixed in Live 9) and there is a separate issue regarding PDC on return channels when using sends (there is a work around for this but I can't find it at the moment).

I think that PDC is difficult to address in Live due to flexible routing and the focus on real-time performance*. While it may seem like a no brainer to just "fix" these problems, I don't think any of us are familiar enough with Ableton's development process to say if it's even practical/possible to fix the underlying cause**. I'm not saying "just deal with it", I'm saying people should make their choices based on current functionality, not based on what may happen between now and the final release of Live 9. As I've said before, I really hope these issues get fixed in Live 9 but if not I will continue using it as I've done since v4.

Regarding DAW comparisons: I'm not gonna touch that one.


____
*Standard disclaimer: I could be wrong.
**Not to be taken as fact! Pure speculation!