FL Studio 12 Released!

[trimph1]

Use of 5/7 is mostly in eastern European/middle Asian, I guess.

That's 7/8 and 9/8 (Bulgaria, Macedonia). Nobody uses x/7 timesignatures. Perhaps some avantgarde composers, just for the sake of being avantgarde.

[Karma_tba]

So you're saying it's 1. B in BPM doesn't mean the same "beat".

And really, don't try to escape this, you wrote "So while the BPM in FL remains 60 throughout, we've actually got 120 beats per minute". BPM is 60, beats per minute is 120 - this is what you're saying. So if once again you're saying that I'm misinterpreting things.. there must be a logic barrier.

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that in FL I only get to choose one BPM value and time signature for the project. I chose 4/4 and 60 BPM. But the part that is supposed to be in 7/8 is actually 120 BPM - and the BPM value in FL is thus wrong for the part that was 7/8 (because I can't change time signature, and by extension, what constitutes a beat). So I'm illustrating how it currently works in FL - which as you say, makes no sense and is confusing. That's why we're having this discussion. I'm glad we can agree on this point.

The correct value would be 120 in 7/8 - if one beat is now half as long (or twice as quick) as before, you obviously have twice as many beats per minute. So yes, one beat in 4/4 is not the same as one beat in 7/8. That's the whole point. When you change from a x/4 to x/8 time signature, the length of the beat is halved. I've even drawn you a diagram, did you look at it? I made you an audio file with the beats being counted. Did you listen to it? Did you not hear that the beats were more frequent in 7/8?

This is exactly the same as wavelengths and Hz. If you halve the wavelength, the frequency doubles. By the same token, if you halve the length of a beat, the number of beats per minute (BPM) doubles. And halving the length of the beat is exactly what happens when you switch from x/4 to x/8. This is really simple maths - fractions and reciprocals. 1/2 is the reciprocal of 2/1.

What this means is that BPM can change with a time signature change, even though the the same note (e.g. a quarter note) doesn't change - it's the same tempo. Now in theory, I doubt the BPM value matters too much; allowing you to change time signatures and getting the grid lines in the piano roll to reflect time signatures properly would be much more important.


-----------------

I should also probably point out, that setting the denominator in FL doesn't do what it should - if you're still thinking of time signatures the way FL uses them, that might be the source of your confusion. If I have the step sequencer open and select 4/4 time, it looks pretty sensible; I have 4 beats, each of which is made up of 4 sixteenths. But at 7/8, instead of having 7 beats each divided into 2 sixteenths, I get 7 beats, each of which is divided into 64th notes (there are 8 of them). So instead of halving the number of sixteenth steps per beat (from 4 to 2), you've doubled them (from 4 to 8 ). This should be the other way round - you need to use the reciprocal. The 8 isn't how many subdivisions there are per beat (it's not a fraction!), but determines what type of note constitutes a beat; in this case an eighth note (which is the same length as two sixteenth notes). If you still think the way FL handles "time signatures" in the general settings is right, that's probably why you are having trouble.

If all these "rules" /formulas etc. are written in stone why is it called "music theory".....instead of "music fact" ? Relativity, the Big Bang, Ancient Astronauts....Music?! Just sayin' !

[highkoo]

sjm and gol are the only posters I have consistently understood in these last few pages.

[Z3R0T0N1N]

for the same reason that the fact of evolution is explained by the theory of evolution, or that the facts about gravity are explained by gravitational theory. You are thinking hypothesis, not theory.

Sorry, I honestly don't care about time signatures, but I do care very much about the erosion of meaning of the word theory which has occurred since the internet. It does the world no good to leave it unchallenged.

If all these "rules" /formulas etc. are written in stone why is it called "music theory".....instead of "music fact" ? Relativity, the Big Bang, Ancient Astronauts....Music?! Just sayin' !

Relativity: successful theory, first posed as a hypothesis, and then rigorously tested and studied, until it became the theory of relativity. It was used to make predictions about the state of the universe which, among other things, make GPS possible, and thus became a successful theory.

Ancient Astronauts.... ummm.... I think that still lingers in the realm of supposition and hypothesis.

Music theory: Successful in that it can be used reliably to make people mad at Gol.

[CC4]

This is a pretty hard thread to follow especially when I only understand about half of the conversation and am trying really hard to understand the second half. I think Evil Dragon has been explaining things rather clearly. Music theory can be pretty complicated, but I'm not sure why counting and time signature should be so elusive.

A beat is the basic unit of time or pulse. In music notation, the top number (or numerator) of the time signature specifies how many beats or pulses are contained in each bar. The bottom number (or denominator) determines the note value that is given to one beat.

A mechanical metronome just ticks. You’re just counting the ticks. Play with one. The metronome evolved to precisely determine when each tick should occur based on the bottom number. It soon added a different pitch to indicate the downbeat or top number. I seriously don't understand the confusion. Download a software metronome.

[Karma_tba]

for the same reason that the fact of evolution is explained by the theory of evolution, or that the facts about gravity are explained by gravitational theory. You are thinking hypothesis, not theory.

Sorry, I honestly don't care about time signatures, but I do care very much about the erosion of meaning of the word theory which has occurred since the internet. It does the world no good to leave it unchallenged.

If all these "rules" /formulas etc. are written in stone why is it called "music theory".....instead of "music fact" ? Relativity, the Big Bang, Ancient Astronauts....Music?! Just sayin' !

Relativity: successful theory, first posed as a hypothesis, and then rigorously tested and studied, until it became the theory of relativity. It was used to make predictions about the state of the universe which, among other things, make GPS possible, and thus became a successful theory.

Ancient Astronauts.... ummm.... I think that still lingers in the realm of supposition and hypothesis.

Music theory: Successful in that it can be used reliably to make people mad at Gol.

the·o·ry
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
NOUN [PLURAL THE·O·RIES.]
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3.
Mathematics a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4.
the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5.
a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles: conflicting theories of how children best learn to read.
My first post was a failed attempt at humor, but since we are getting all deep, please refer to #'s 2,4,and 5.

[memyselfandus]

"This is a pretty hard thread to follow especially when I only understand about half of the conversation and am trying really hard to understand the second half. I think Evil Dragon has been explaining things rather clearly. Music theory can be pretty complicated, but I'm not sure why counting and time signature should be so elusive.

A beat is the basic unit of time or pulse. In music notation, the top number (or numerator) of the time signature specifies how many beats or pulses are contained in each bar. The bottom number (or denominator) determines the note value that is given to one beat.

A mechanical metronome just ticks. You’re just counting the ticks. Play with one. The metronome evolved to precisely determine when each tick should occur based on the bottom number. It soon added a different pitch to indicate the downbeat or top number. I seriously don't understand the confusion. Download a software metronome."


This ^^

[Andywanders]

And we all thought drummers were dumb.

[trimph1]

Time signatures: Things for drummers to ignore....

[She Changed Her Mind]

If it's the only signature it is totally irrelevant if a signature is 7/7, 7/8, 7/9.. whatsoever. As it comes to editing notes in a DAW without notation.
The measure will be divided in 7 equal parts.
The denominator only gets interesting when multiple time signatures are used.. THEN it becomes avant garde. Geez..

[She Changed Her Mind]

sjm and gol are the only posters I have consistently understood in these last few pages.

No one cares about what you do comprehend or not. In other words: just piss off.

[trimph1]

If it's the only signature it is totally irrelevant if a signature is 7/7, 7/8, 7/9.. whatsoever. As it comes to editing notes in a DAW without notation.
The measure will be divided in 7 equal parts.
The denominator only gets interesting when multiple time signatures are used.. THEN it becomes avant garde. Geez..

None of my things has any discernable rhythm at all...

[She Changed Her Mind]

I've had it: therefore I will give all possibilities HOW to change a 4/4 signature in any other signature

4/4-4/4 (repetition of time signature)
----
Bar (clip) stays the same length:
4/4-4/5 (faster beat, same note indication) 0.25/0.20
4/4-4/3 slower beat, same note indication) 0.25/0.33
4/4-5/4 (same beat, faster note indication) 0.20/0.25
4/4-3/4 (same beat, slower note indication) 0.33/0.25
4/4-5/3 (slower beat, faster note indication) 0.20/0.33
4/4-3/5 (faster beat, slower note indication) 0.33/0.20
----
4/4-5/5 (faster beat, faster note indication)
4/4-3/3 (slower beat, slower note indication)
----
Bar becomes shorter or longer:
4/4-4/5 (both num/den become shorter) 1》0.8, 4x0.25》 4x0.2
4/4-4/3 (both num/den become longer) 1》1.33, 4x0.25》4x0.33
4/4-5/4 (both num/den stay the same) 1》1.25
4/4-3/4 (both num/den stay the same) 1》 0.75
4/4-5/3 (both num/den become longer) 1》1.66
4/4-3/5 (both num/den become shorter) 1》0.6
___
4/4-5/5 (both num/den become shorter) 1》1
4/4-3/3 (both num/den become longer) 1》1

[tony tony chopper]

No that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that in FL I only get to choose one BPM value and time signature for the project. I chose 4/4 and 60 BPM. But the part that is supposed to be in 7/8 is actually 120 BPM - and the BPM value in FL is thus wrong for the part that was 7/8 (because I can't change time signature, and by extension, what constitutes a beat). So I'm illustrating how it currently works in FL - which as you say, makes no sense and is confusing. That's why we're having this discussion. I'm glad we can agree on this point.

I've been presented a video of Live accelerating, for the SAME tempo, its metronome as the time signature was changed from /4 to /8.
So would you say that Live does it wrong?


Seriously, how can you even argue against this?
We have a BEATS per minute setting. IF a metronome is playing on the SAME BEATS as in BPM, then at 120BPM, the metronome should play 120 times per minute, PERIOD.

You just can't say that this is all wrong and that a metronome isn't playing 120 times per minute for a tempo of 120BPM, and STILL pretend that both the beats in BPM and in a metronome are the same thing. That's just plainly stupid. I don't know what's going on here, if you're serious or trolling.

I should also probably point out, that setting the denominator in FL doesn't do what it should

wait, FL has no timesig denumerator, never had, I never pretended it had one. FL has a "steps per beat" setting, that's for the step sequencer.

[elassi]

Guess this discussion justifies "Petits Fours" instead of popcorn.