Steinberg Discontinuing VST2 Support in its products

[zvenx]

@zvenx: well, he literally said that "SOME" midi effects and instruments will be affected - where the all caps is part of the original quote...which you even quoted yourself. perhaps those plugins that don't have any problems use only a subset of midi that happens to be unproblematic in vst3?

mind showing me where I had quoted that some (not at all saying I didn't, just not finding it easily).
rsp

[sQeetz]

ooh, but from what I understand a lot of plugins don't work with midi 2.0 yet...but isn't that issue in logic using au?
I meant steinberg vst3 plugins.
My bad.rsp

Not a single plugin I have (and I have a lot) doesn't work with MIDI 2.0 on Logic left on. It's just Backbone which doesn't. MIDI 2 is backwards compatible.

[Music Engineer]

here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=576589&start=438

[zvenx]

@zvenx: well, he literally said that "SOME" midi effects and instruments will be affected - where the all caps is part of the original quote...which you even quoted yourself. perhaps those plugins that don't have any problems use only a subset of midi that happens to be unproblematic in vst3?

ooh I see it,.. He has edited what was there originally. the last part I was emphasizing didn't have some that I recall. But indeed I did quote the whole thing.

thanks

rsp

[Dewdman42]

The word “some” was always there, you quoted it too. I added an additional phrase in parens to make it more clear

[zvenx]

here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=576589&start=438

Thanks.. indeed... there is a some there, not in the last sentence though which was what I was really highlighting..

I have no issue with some..... I have no issue with many..... but I am sure it is not all, and I am not even sure if it is most.

[zvenx]

The word “some” was always there, you quoted it too. I added an additional phrase in parens to make it more clear

Indeed the first some was there, I was hiliting the now 'clarified' part but I did quote the entire thing...
rsp

[zvenx]

ooh, but from what I understand a lot of plugins don't work with midi 2.0 yet...but isn't that issue in logic using au?
I meant steinberg vst3 plugins.
My bad.rsp

Not a single plugin I have (and I have a lot) doesn't work with MIDI 2.0 on Logic left on. It's just Backbone which doesn't. MIDI 2 is backwards compatible.

Ahhh... but indeed for clarification I meant steinberg vst3 instrument not the au version.

rsp

[Dewdman42]

When Zvenx is done being the word police maybe we can get back to useful discussion ?

[pdxindy]

The fact that avid requires everyone to use their proprietary plugin format or Steinberg requires everyone to use theirs is on them!! Neither one of them have provided a true universal industry standard plugin format. Only Apple has done so with AU, but it’s not on windows or Linux so they haven’t either.

The industry still needs that true universal neutral format. Vst isn’t it.

Maybe it will be clap

I think CLAP has a good chance to succeed.

The timing is good with Steinberg dropping VST2 support and making threats of removing it altogether. So something needs to take its place. It is obviously not going to be VST3.

That leaves Juce and CLAP (with LV2 looking on) to fill the void of the disappearing VST2. Juce of course is not a plugin format but does solve the problem for various devs. CLAP is off to a good start with u-he and Bitwig openly on board and multiple other devs involved. Reaper already seems likely with their involvement. If Ableton also supports CLAP, then it is on solid ground right there.

[zvenx]

When Zvenx is done being the word police maybe we can get back to useful discussion ?

lol.
I am done (for now)

(good one..lol)
rsp

[Erisian]

Snap 2022-01-19 at 14.28.31.jpg

[sQeetz]

Ahhh... but indeed for clarification I meant steinberg vst3 instrument not the au version.

AFAIK Steinberg just makes VST3 plugins and wraps it for any format they deem approachable.

[pdxindy]

The vst3 design flaws are well known by those that know, which apparently does not include you. Vst3 midi design flaws can affect any manufacturer including waves of course.

Yeah, the issues with midi and VST3 are well documented... of course that doesn't mean that various developers haven't worked around those issues.

What seems fairly sure is that many developers will not be developing using VST3 the way they have VST2. So a replacement is needed since VST2 is disappearing.

[Dewdman42]

Yeah, the issues with midi and VST3 are well documented... of course that doesn't mean that various developers haven't worked around those issues.

some of the issues have been worked around, some cannot be because of the way VST3 has abstracted the midi stream into something else that Steinberg deemed appropriate, but there are particular midi use cases where their abstractions limit what is possible and their abstractions destroy the serial order of raw midi event queues, so there is not much a plugin developer can do to work around that lost information, for example.

I think the bigger question for most people is about licensing. Some of us can't even get the VST2 license. And the VST3 license includes agreeing to things which Steinberg has added that would give them even more power in the future to rip the rug out from under everyone at their discretion. The VST3 api is complex...has design flaws...yes...but aside from all of that...people can try to work around some of the flaws....or just live with the design flaws since its probably not the majority of midi use cases anyway....but still....you have the issue that Steinberg could come out with VST3.6 and next time they'll be able to say that everyone signed an agreement allowing them to revoke licensing any time they want.

Its time to move away from that. What has happened with VST2 has been bad enough, but at some time in the future, their new tighter licenses will be an even bigger disruption if we don't find another way.

There is no reason whatsoever why something like CLAP can't be the primary way people make plugins and then distribute VST3, AAX and AU wrapped plugins from that. In the future if and when Steinberg pulls some VST3 license shenanigans, then at least the primary code of each plugin will be in CLAP....and have no problem whatsoever with licensing...the change in Steinberg's license should only affect Cubase users....which is as it should be. Developers would then be free to try to adapt their wrappers to whatever Steinberg wants next for Cubase and on we would go with hardly a discussion about it.