Sad state of Native Instruments

[Borbolactic]

The piano, harmonica and acoustic guitar and many others haven't been upgraded in a long time. Very disappointed.

I am waiting for Urs to open up U-he Acoustics. From there, he can create updates to many acoustic instruments and/or create entirely novel forms that take the world by storm.

[SeeingInMidi]

The piano, harmonica and acoustic guitar and many others haven't been upgraded in a long time. Very disappointed.

I am waiting for Urs to open up U-he Acoustics. From there, he can create updates to many acoustic instruments and/or create entirely novel forms that take the world by storm.

Is U-he acoustics something they announced? I know they have been playing around with physically modelled drums.

[Borbolactic]

The piano, harmonica and acoustic guitar and many others haven't been upgraded in a long time. Very disappointed.

I am waiting for Urs to open up U-he Acoustics. From there, he can create updates to many acoustic instruments and/or create entirely novel forms that take the world by storm.

Is U-he acoustics something they announced? I know they have been playing around with physically modelled drums.

It's something that was suggested to Urs, since it may be that if civilization declines hard and fast enough, electricity may not be as reliable as many of us have taken for granted and we may be faced with rolling blackouts or brownouts and relatively-useless electricity-powered musical instruments.

[pdxindy]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

For example, I’m pissed that Massive X doesn’t have polyphonic aftertouch support. Niche, I know, but I like what I like. But it is still installed and gets used for bass and lead sounds. It actually replaced a Pro 2 and freed up space for a PolyBrute.

Of course you are welcome to use whatever you want.

I have plenty of alternatives that don't have drawbacks so I can happily be picky.

Also, it is a matter of time investment. Take Massive X. As you say, it doesn't support PolyAT. So you use it for leads and basses. Except it also doesn't support MPE. I often use my Linnstrument for playing leads and basses cause mono pitch slides are musically valuable to me. No can do in MX. I also use the MPE capability for more than "expressive playing". I can use the midi channels to change the synth parameters per note using Bitwig modulators. Doesn't work in MX cause there is no direct parameter automation. Etc.

Not a good investment of time to learn to use a synth well when it is not capable of a variety of uses that are common for me. Especially when I have plenty of other synths that are flexible for my use cases.

That's kinda how it is for NI in general... so out their stuff went. Of course if I didn't have plenty of other synths/fx that served my needs/interests, I would make do. Thankfully, I don't have to.

[machinesworking]

Preset tweakers is not a new thing though. Just take the 80s and the Fairlight. I don't know how many records that were created using the Fairlight library straight out of the box. And let's not talk about the DX! The bigwig producers hired programmers to develop sounds for them. I don't see preset tweaking as anything bad though. It's like working with food. You can make your own broth by boiling bones overnight with your preferred veggies and spices. It's easy to learn and to do. It just takes time. The easier way is to pop in a broth cube that gives you similar flavours, but it doesn't give you the control of where you want to go.

I'm a rabid hardcore proponent of learning at least one synthesizer inside out. To make a sound I have in my head in let's say Diva takes me less time than it takes to find a suitable preset. Damn it, I can even do it when out walking hearing the results in my head!
But during preset flipping I usually stumble across something that I never could have thought of, which puts me into a different direction. That's what I think is the power behind having a lot of presets at your hand.

Both ways are good.

Amen.

There's a few bits of KVR orthodoxy that are kinda silly, and "presets are bad" is one of them. So many classic records are made with presets, in interviews people often say they just used what was lying around in the studio. And this was in the days when presets got "famous" from over-use. I have many tens of thousands of presets across different synths, and the only widely recognisable ones are the old famous presets.

It's whatever works for you.

In terms of NI, I'm still waiting for them to make Komplete Kontrol useable as a unified preset browser. Arturia do it well in Analog Lab. Hell, even NI did it with Kore, but that was 20 years ago. It's staggering to me that their browsers across the range are as bad as they are, and KK is the epicenter of the badness.

For the record I never brought it up to trash on people who use presets, it's just thousands of dollars cheaper to do this with synths that cost $30 to 350 a pop VS $300 to 10,000.

So oddly the second conversation there brings up the biggest disappointment I think many of us have with NI, their "latest" universal browser that has massive potential, but is now just ignored with Komplete Control. I bought a used KK 88 MKII for the studio and I'm completely not disappointed with it as a piece of hardware, but it's a mess software wise. KK is crippled on Apple Silicon Macs because NI never came up with a way to port it to VST3, it's also I would guess a mess in Cubase for the same reason. Plus, like you guys have mentioned the browser is silly, it doesn't give you enough filters to get anything meaningful, especially when you have a ton of KK ready instruments. I wouldn't be surprised if it lingers for a long time now, then goes away. It's used to sell hardware, so it's not a focus, and they've run into update issues with VST3 etc.

[Gribs]

Well that tells me to stick with my version one Keylab 88. It works quite well for what I want it to do, which is be a piano-like, 88-key controller. I pretty much bang on the keys and use the aftertouch, pitch, and mod wheels. I could probably do with an even simpler controller, but it works fine for me.

[DrGonzo]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

Active development matters to end users. If it wouldn't matter we would still be using Sylenth1. Sylenth1 was a damn fine synth 10 years ago and one of the most popular of synths in the EDM genre. Today nobody cares about Sylenth, although it still can impress the socks off me.

I can see even that in my own work. If I were to release a techno soundset for Sylenth or the original Massive, nobody would care. If I do the same for Pigments or Repro, I get a huge response.

Active development matters a lot. Maybe it's because of our tribalistic nature as humans and we like to be involved with exciting new prospects.

[machinesworking]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

Active development matters to end users. If it wouldn't matter we would still be using Sylenth1. Sylenth1 was a damn fine synth 10 years ago and one of the most popular of synths in the EDM genre. Today nobody cares about Sylenth, although it still can impress the socks off me.

I can see even that in my own work. If I were to release a techno soundset for Sylenth or the original Massive, nobody would care. If I do the same for Pigments or Repro, I get a huge response.

Active development matters a lot. Maybe it's because of our tribalistic nature as humans and we like to be involved with exciting new prospects.

IMO it's tied to it being software more than anything else. Nobody really cares that the Les Paul is a 50 year old design. In fact people get weird about 50 year old pickups etc. I don't see Indie bands all playing bright orange ESPs etc. Same with old analog synths, people buy them for more money than they sold for originally. We still love the sound of those things.

Active development means generally less bugs, and less chance of a plug in not working in VST3 or on Apple Silicon, less chance of issues. Plus the fact that plug ins are 20+ times cheaper than hardware has something to do with it. I have four hardware synths and an MPC, but I have 130 VSTs.

[BBFG#]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

Yes, and that atrocity is called Access. And with each new version they are the ones denying the use of every other software I own from them. Let me download once, install as needed and not be limited or cut off by that one piece of crap software of theirs.

[zerocrossing]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

Active development matters to end users. If it wouldn't matter we would still be using Sylenth1. Sylenth1 was a damn fine synth 10 years ago and one of the most popular of synths in the EDM genre. Today nobody cares about Sylenth, although it still can impress the socks off me.

I can see even that in my own work. If I were to release a techno soundset for Sylenth or the original Massive, nobody would care. If I do the same for Pigments or Repro, I get a huge response.

Active development matters a lot. Maybe it's because of our tribalistic nature as humans and we like to be involved with exciting new prospects.

Yeah, I hear you, though I’m OK with a plugin staying “as is,” as long as that “as is” is stable, or doesn’t have some sort of bug or problem. I’m still using the last Windows version of Alchemy. In another thread, I brought up how amazing Strobe 2 and Cypher 2 are, and I got a lot of, “they haven’t been updated in years,” responses. Considering how great they sound, and how feature packed they are, they smoke a lot of the competition, yet they get ignored. The per voice distortion on Cypher 2is basically the best available in software (as good as my Analog Four), yet no one cares. Well, I care. I love that sound.

Anyway, I wish Massive X had MPE and and polyphonic aftertouch support. Hell, I wish all their instruments did. I wish Battery was as good as it used to be. I wish Absynth was still being developed. However, my wish for what isn’t isn’t going to prevent me from getting great stuff from what is.

[zerocrossing]

This seems like nose cutting off behavior. Is there really anything so atrocious about NI’s software that you can’t bring yourself to enjoy it for what it is? I could maybe see not buying it at this point, though I would, but to deny yourself a resource that you already own? I don’t get that at all.

Active development matters to end users. If it wouldn't matter we would still be using Sylenth1. Sylenth1 was a damn fine synth 10 years ago and one of the most popular of synths in the EDM genre. Today nobody cares about Sylenth, although it still can impress the socks off me.

I can see even that in my own work. If I were to release a techno soundset for Sylenth or the original Massive, nobody would care. If I do the same for Pigments or Repro, I get a huge response.

Active development matters a lot. Maybe it's because of our tribalistic nature as humans and we like to be involved with exciting new prospects.

IMO it's tied to it being software more than anything else. Nobody really cares that the Les Paul is a 50 year old design. In fact people get weird about 50 year old pickups etc. I don't see Indie bands all playing bright orange ESPs etc. Same with old analog synths, people buy them for more money than they sold for originally. We still love the sound of those things.

I’d love to see an indy band with bright orange ESPs. I played with a bass player once who loved his florescent blue B.C. Rich Warlock bass.

https://reverb.com/item/31832580-b-c-ri ... 1980s-blue

Ugliest damn bass I’d ever seen. The best part of it was that the guy was basically the real life equivalent of Judge Harry Stone from the 80s TV show Night Court. Meanwhile, we’re playing music who’s closest equivalent would be bands like Radiohead or Peter Gabriel. So, total visual disconnect. He loved it, though, so who am I to criticize? He was a really good bass player too, except that he’d work in The Sailor’s Hornpipe into every single song.

Active development means generally less bugs, and less chance of a plug in not working in VST3 or on Apple Silicon, less chance of issues. Plus the fact that plug ins are 20+ times cheaper than hardware has something to do with it. I have four hardware synths and an MPC, but I have 130 VSTs.

Yeah, I actually abandoned Apple for music because it took Native Instruments so long to update their plugins for Apple’s first Intel machines. I held on to a G5 for a very long time but then moved to PC, and since then I can’t actually think of a plugin that I own that no longer works due to lack of development. The worst thing is tiny UI sizes, but I keep an older monitor hooked up for such things and it works great.

[rod_zero]

For some reasons I am always in latest OS, latest DAW version, some kind recent hardware, so active maintenance for me is a big deal, I also like to see improvements, even if slow. U-he for me is the ideal balance and pace of development, I still use ACE for example, old, haven't got updates in a long time but I am pretty sure any bug resulting from a OS update will be resolved eventually. NI has become a slug and quite behind in many areas.

[machinesworking]

Yeah, I actually abandoned Apple for music because it took Native Instruments so long to update their plugins for Apple’s first Intel machines. I held on to a G5 for a very long time but then moved to PC, and since then I can’t actually think of a plugin that I own that no longer works due to lack of development. The worst thing is tiny UI sizes, but I keep an older monitor hooked up for such things and it works great.

Honestly at that point NI was way better at Windows coding. Reaktor was a mess until later versions of v4 for instance. NI refused to head constant warning from Apple that developers should switch to Xcode, and continued to use CodeWarrior, so when the Intel switch happened they were completely unprepared. There's a reason everyone else was able to switch quickly and NI wasn't, and it's not "because of the sheer range of their product line". None of this was surprising to me, NI make great software, but they operate like most large corporations do, like aircraft carriers, unable to turn direction in less than a few miles. When they released Komplete Care previous to Apples Intel turn, they completely screwed it up, unable to keep up a pace of development that made it worthwhile. They lose developers and then deprecate the plug ins etc. Despite all that they make great software, you just have to expect them to be late to change anything, like GUI's, VST3, Apple Silicon, etc. etc. etc.

Out of curiosity Are you still able to use Kompact, Impact, Spectral Delay, B3, Akoustic Piano etc, etc? From them? What surprised me the other day is loading Kompact instruments into Kontakt worked pretty well, even on Mac OS.

[CrystalWizard]

Has this been posted here?

This video will save me a lot of typing...

i posted earlier that i have a collection of working old machines. On them i run mostly old software. I haven't bought nor updated much in about 5 or 6 years. There are very few things that i'm really interested in getting and even some of them are old ( Bazille, Plasmonic, Crusher X, and something Dawesome). My system works quite well for me. Reaktor alone could keep me happy for a lifetime, and there's Max, M4L, VCV Rack, and plenty more.

[omahlay1800]

When I started making music, Native Instruments was at the forefront of making innovative music software. In the past few years, it has become clear that is no longer the case. They sold out to some big business, fired a huge number of people, and stopped doing what once made them so great.

Massive X release was delayed, the released product was still unfinished, updates have been slow and unimpressive.

Guitar Rig 6 was released with the promise of incredible ICM components that would be released frequently based on people’s wishes. It’s been years and apart from the three they launched with they’ve released zero, latest news was there aren’t plans for any.

Komplete 14 was released with pretty much no new NI software, they just added a new browser to Kontakt and bundled a mishmash of third party products. They keep promoting synths by U-he and Arturia instead of making their own.

Absynth was killed off.

Super 8, a Reaktor based synth, was turned into a VST with no new features. They are now discontinuing the VST version and going back to Reaktor only, so all that did was make things convoluted for people who used the VST.

Reaktor, a dev said on the forum that NI “is not in a position to invest major resources in this product, which has not been news for some time.” Blocks started out strong, but NI stopped making them and so did the community after the messy front panel patching update making old blocks incompatible, and Reaktor in general being convoluted.

Now they just release sample packs as new products, and take painfully long to update their remaining products to current spec standards. I hope they can bounce back from this but am not holding my breath.

Feel free to add to my rant, disagree or just mourn NI’s demise.

trully agree. also as my past experience with them they became super rude.
thay why i dont use their stuff anymore