Have Modern VST Instruments Replaced Your Hardware Synths ?

[chk071]

I have a Prophet 6 since a few weeks and yeah,Repro is pale in comparison,as are all the software emulations.Even my cheap Roland Alpha Juno 1 makes incredible PWM pads that I can't match with Diva.

Let's hear it so that we can compare

IMO, sound is rather the sum of its parts. Hence the size of the "sweet spot". Can't be broken down to a single, probably rather simple sound which can be posted here, and someone maybe uses hours to reproduce it. Not much point in that.

[e-crooner]

I just want to hear that "incredible PWM pad", what's so difficult about it?! If they can't record it, what is it good for in the first place?!

[Jkist]

Cost is a necessary talking point because many of us have limited budgets, and many of the revered analog synths that are said to have the best sound cost crazy amounts of money. So software emulations came to be.

But to ask something like "given same price, would you rather have the real thing, or an emulation of it", I think most would choose the real thing, not necessarily because its objectively better, but because by pure conditioning we are lead to believe that the original thing is almost always better than any remake or emulation.

Better or not, I do like that plugins dont take up any space, because I am working with a pretty limited amount of it. I also love that I really only have to maintain my midi controller, and thats the extent of my hardware maintenance, rather than have to deal with any frustrating hardware failures that can be much more difficult to track down or fix. Yes, I know a lot of the analog machines are very well built, but failures arent unheard of.

But yes, if money were no object and I had limitless space, I would buy all the big hardware synths because it is nice to have something actually in your hands that you can play with, and interact directly with. Like a real, genuine instrument. Also just the historical aspect, it would be cool to own an iconic piece of music history.

[ScrLk]

I've thought about it like that too, and it will certainly seem more interesting to other people that you're dedicated enough to actually own these objects... much more tangible than just using the PC a bit.

But then synthesizers don't seem like the most interesting instruments to own, because the generated sound is still "virtual" (coming from speakers) and the interface is similar to a midi controller.

So this pushes me towards wanting to own instruments like guitars or flutes, over just another box of electronics.

Just thinking out loud, to each their own.

[zerocrossing]

I have a Prophet 6 since a few weeks and yeah,Repro is pale in comparison,as are all the software emulations.Even my cheap Roland Alpha Juno 1 makes incredible PWM pads that I can't match with Diva.

I know anything you own as a box is cooler to use... but no one seems to be able to prove that it's actually better using objective measurements.

That’s because there’s no such thing as objectively “better” when it comes to sound. In fact, characteristics that are considered generally “undesirable” in electronics (noise, distortion, loose tolerances and drifting values due to temperature) may be the exact things that make it someone’s favorite instrument. We all saw the mighty analogs discarded for the mighty FM/PD synths of the 80s... only to come back as commanding lottery winning sized prices, while the DXs and CZs prices have remained comparatively low.

Here’s a story. It’s an anecdote that’s only really objectively true for me, but it seems indicative of a general truth I’ve come to believe based on doing this for a long time. Anyway, I have a Studio Electronics ATC-X analog monophonic synth. It’s a 2 space rack model that lives under my desk in a place where I can’t see it. I operate it using their software editor, so to me, it just seems like a monophonic VST. It was recommended to me by someone on GearSlutz, and the demos blew me away, so I got one. (Actually the ATC-1, which I later upgraded to the X with the four filter models) It wasn’t very expensive. I paid $500 for it, which if you’re living where I live is not that much money. At the time, it blew the software competition away. (At that time the best analog emulation was Diva) I still feel that way. Diva is great, no doubt, but I think if any of you were working on an analog mono sound and tried both, you’d agree with me. It’s a pretty clear difference. So far, I’ve yet to find it’s replacement in software, so it stays.

Now, I want to repeat that the above is only valid for “an analog mono sound.” This is not something that is clearly necessary or even always wanted. Like anything else, it’s just a single flavor in a world of options. You may not even like that type of sound, and that’s well within your rights. However, if you do really connect with that type of sound, then wouldn’t you want the absolute best representation of that sound, especially if it can be had for relatively cheap?

I also live on the other side of that argument. For years I’ve heard that for a chorus effect, there’s nothing like a real bb analog chorus. I’ve long used digital hardware and software for chorus effects and to my ears, they sound great. I decided to try an analog chorus, partially for the sound, but more for the idea of having a physical hardware interface that I could interact with. It sounded great... but to be honest, when I put it up against several software plugins, I almost always thought the software sounded just as good and had a lot more features. Does that mean that the people who said analog chorus was better were wrong? Nope. It means that I personally don’t care that much about it. Emulations and pure digital chorus is fine for me, and I actually tend to like digital chorus more. Übermod is really one of my all time favorites. I’m more picky about a tape delay, but I definitely don’t want to deal with actual magnetic tape or drum delays, so they’re out of the question and I except using plugins, even though I feel like the real deal has a bit of an edge.

All I can say is that synths and effects can capture my attention and be really inspiring. Sometime that form is a hardware unit, sometimes a software plugin. I’m aware the cost between the two is somewhat stupid compared to what you get, and I fully admit that it makes little sense. If all of the sudden my wife and I were out of work and unable to find new employment, I’d have no problem selling it all off, but as long as we have a nice savings and retirement account and enough to pay the rent and keep our daughter in her private school (which I feel is worth every penny, though expensive), I’ll keep what I have. I enjoy it, and that’s what music is for me. Pure enjoyment. I could also probably get rid of my guitars and just work with physical models and samples, but I enjoy physically interacting with the real deal, so I keep them too. Guitar amps, OTOH, were always a lot of downside to how I liked to work, so they’ve been gone for years. I still use a Kemper Amp Profiler, though, because I’ve yet to find software that sounds nearly as good.

[Cro-magnon]

I just want to hear that "incredible PWM pad", what's so difficult about it?! If they can't record it, what is it good for in the first place?!

If you prefer software,go with software.Each his own.Me choose to go with my synths.
I give up this thread because I know these endless and pointless discussions like Mac vs PC,analog vs digital,etc...
I hope you're talking with some experience with hardware,at least.

[ScrLk]

It's just that U-he spent many manhours into copying all of the analog quirks into Repro so it feels cheap to then just say, nope the Prophet is still better, it obviously just is and doesn't need proof because it's an expensive box and we all know those will always sound better. You know?

[AnX]

I have a Prophet 6 since a few weeks and yeah,Repro is pale in comparison

Repro1 or Repro5?

neither are an emulation of a Prophet6

Even my cheap Roland Alpha Juno 1 makes incredible PWM pads that I can't match with Diva.

Diva only has some elements of the AJ, so it's possible something essential may be missing in Diva to recreate that sound

an example would be useful

[e-crooner]

I just want to hear that "incredible PWM pad", what's so difficult about it?! If they can't record it, what is it good for in the first place?!

If you prefer software,go with software.Each his own.Me choose to go with my synths.
I give up this thread because I know these endless and pointless discussions like Mac vs PC,analog vs digital,etc...
I hope you're talking with some experience with hardware,at least.

For me it would be insane to spend thousands of euros on a hardware synth such as a Prophet, especially in times like these.
But I don't prefer software as such, especially not in terms of sound, although the JX 8P was the only synth I ever had. I assume that a quality hardware synth probably still sounds slightly better than the best plugin.
I was merely really curious how that incredible PWM pad sounds so I can try it in a softsynth.

[v1o]

I have a Prophet 6 since a few weeks and yeah,Repro is pale in comparison,as are all the software emulations.Even my cheap Roland Alpha Juno 1 makes incredible PWM pads that I can't match with Diva.

Are you talking about physicality of the knobs and buttons on the Pro 6?

[vurt]

I just want to hear that "incredible PWM pad", what's so difficult about it?! If they can't record it, what is it good for in the first place?!

If you prefer software,go with software.Each his own.Me choose to go with my synths.
I give up this thread because I know these endless and pointless discussions like Mac vs PC,analog vs digital,etc...
I hope you're talking with some experience with hardware,at least.

For me it would be insane to spend thousands of euros on a hardware synth such as a Prophet, especially in times like these.
But I don't prefer software as such, especially not in terms of sound, although the JX 8P was the only synth I ever had. I assume that a quality hardware synth probably still sounds slightly better than the best plugin.
I was merely really curious how that incredible PWM pad sounds so I can try it in a softsynth.

times like these are when you should say "f**k it, im having some fun, could be dead tomorrow"

eat! drink! be merry!
for tomorrow we may die!

for sparta!

[BONES]

You can go to a gig with only a Prophet 6, try doing the same with a plugin.

You'd better hope the rest of the band turns up, then, or it will be a pretty boring gig. I can fit my entire live set up, full backing for every song we've ever written, into a single carry-on luggage sized Pelican case, try doing that with your stupid Prophet 6.

Of course they cost less because they are just snippets of DSP code, completely useless on their own.

No more or less useless than your hardware synths, which require some form of amplification and speakers, or a pair of headphones, to work. OTOH, the laptop that houses my VSTis is perfectly capable of producing sound all on its own, despite the fact that it cost just one-sixth of the price of a Prophet 6. Think about that for a moment - one-sixth of the price for not one, but potentially hundreds of synths, hundreds of effects, as many sequencers as I feel like, audio editors, etc., etc. And you want to suggest that because you can carry your Prophet to a gig that it is some kind of advantage. Do you not see the utter absurdity of your position and how stupid it makes you look?

Hilariously, you can buy equal or better synth plugins for iOS for 10th of the vst plugin price.

What's hilarious is that you see a difference between a tablet computer and another type of computer. The two things are just different form factors. That said, good luck using an iPad as your backing on stage. The only thing I've ever seen them used for are as control surfaces for laptops. But at least you can hear the sound without headphones or a PA so they are still better than hardware.

And you still wont get a similar playing experience, the only way to get a nice feeling rig is to use real synth as the midi controller...

Really? What hardware synth can I buy with anything that comes within a bull's roar of the playing experience I get playing my VSTi with my Roli Seaboard? Even my KeyStep has a better keybed than most of the rest of my hardware and I'd be surprised if the Prophet 6's keybed was any better than my Analog Keys or Ultranova's.

Seriously, even a budget DCO synth sounds million times better than plugins.

Really? Which budget DCO can match ArcSyn's 384 stacked saw waves in a single voice?

Its DSP code with an office computer human interface, not a vintage Prophet.

Which is precisely what makes it so much better. After all, most of those things were just cobbled together from whatever chips happened to be available at the time and/or were restrained by the cost of components. That's why, for example, the ARP Odyssey had three different filters over it's lifetime, each of which was worse than those that went before - the chips they had used went out of production so they had to find something else. So much compromise!! No-one would put up with that kind of BS today, yet you want to suggest that all those compromises actually made for better instruments? You're having a laugh, aren't you?

I don't like that it always ends up being about cost when comparing things. Given software and hardware were the same price, what would you get for yourself?

Software. It's a choice I just made last week because a lot of the hardware I own is mostly in the same ballpark as software anyway. Uno, Craft Synth 2.0 and some of my used synths were under $200.

[zerocrossing]

I just want to hear that "incredible PWM pad", what's so difficult about it?! If they can't record it, what is it good for in the first place?!

If you prefer software,go with software.Each his own.Me choose to go with my synths.
I give up this thread because I know these endless and pointless discussions like Mac vs PC,analog vs digital,etc...
I hope you're talking with some experience with hardware,at least.

For me it would be insane to spend thousands of euros on a hardware synth such as a Prophet, especially in times like these.
But I don't prefer software as such, especially not in terms of sound, although the JX 8P was the only synth I ever had. I assume that a quality hardware synth probably still sounds slightly better than the best plugin.
I was merely really curious how that incredible PWM pad sounds so I can try it in a softsynth.

times like these are when you should say "f**k it, im having some fun, could be dead tomorrow"

eat! drink! be merry!
for tomorrow we may die!

for sparta!

Also, the Prophet 6 desktop can be had for $1500 USD. It’s not thousands. They just added MPE compatibility to it, something that for me makes it a lot more valuable, and sets it apart from Repro.

[BONES]

Prophet 6 desktop is Au$3,689, which is definitely "thousands". It's nine times more expensive than the excellent Uno Synth and 12 times more expensive than the even more excellent Waldorf Rocket. Still, I'd rather use the even more excellent again JP6K, which costs just US$29.

It takes also much more time with hardware,but in the end it's more rewarding and for me the final result sounds better.

As someone who used hardware for the first 20 years of his musical career and has used software for the last 20 years, I can assure that you are completely wrong. At no time have I ever believed, even for a second, that any of my hardware actually sounds better than my software. It just doesn't and it never has. IK's Uno, for example, is as cheap as some plugins and has a fantastic sound but only if I am willing to hobble my softsynths so that an analogue monosynth can compete. Uno doesn't have unison, it doesn't even have cross-modulation options like Hard Sync or FM and it's envelopes are just ADSR jobbies. It's a joke compared to even my cheapest VSTi. Korg's ARP Odyssey is another perfect example of the superiority of softsynths. I could spend $700 on a duophonic hardware Odyssey with no patch memory or effects, or $70 on a VSTi with loads of polyphony, unison, half-a-dozen great sounding effects, an arpeggiator and unlimited patch memory. Best of all, I could make patches with each and you'd never, ever be able to tell which was which. So why would I spend 10 times as much on something that sounds the same but is far more limited?

You spend all this money on music gear when you really love that.

Maybe if you feel you need a crutch but if you are confident in what you are doing, you can spend as much or a little as you want to. Personally, I'd rather spend my money acquiring new music from other artists than on my own music.

You just don't look cost-effectiveness or efficiency.

Of course you do. Efficiency, in particular, allows you to do your best work. Hardware should have taught you that - clean signal paths, short cables, patch bays all those kinds of things that working in software takes to the ultimate level.

It is definitely true that you reach a point of diminishing returns, and it might be your opinion that those returns are negligible, or not worth the expense, but they’re there.

I don't believe they are. I think all of those perceived differences exist only in your head and could not be proven in a blind test. In 40 years I have never heard anything to suggest there is the slightest truth in any of it.

You don’t need a Prophet 6, it can be as cheap as $300, but I bet when you start working with it, you’ll come around to agreeing with me, and if not, just return it and move on.

Sorry, not gonna happen. Like I said, Uno sounds great, Rocket sounds amazing and playing Analog Keys is sublime, but ArcSyn's 384 saw waves sound better, and ArcSyn isn't my even my best sounding softsynth. Also, playing VSTis with my Seaboard is a whole level above banging away at plastic keys.

[BONES]

I have a Prophet 6 since a few weeks and yeah,Repro is pale in comparison,as are all the software emulations.Even my cheap Roland Alpha Juno 1 makes incredible PWM pads that I can't match with Diva.

I remember when the Alpha Junos came out. My local shop had a couple and I spent a bit of time trying them out. I couldn't for the life of me work out a) why Roland had made them or b) who would be stupid enough to buy something so lame, when they could just as easily have a Korg DW or an Ensoniq ESQ. They were so bad I don't think I so much as looked at any new Roland synth for years after that, assuming they had completely lost the plot. So to suggest that anything could be worse than that makes it almost impossible to take anything you have to say seriously.

However, if you do really connect with that type of sound, then wouldn’t you want the absolute best representation of that sound, especially if it can be had for relatively cheap?

Yes, of course. The difference is that I doubt I'd see the hardware as the best sounding. After all, I have plenty, half of it proper analogue, but I still prefer my softsynths in every situation. The other thing is that the term "analog mono sound" doesn't really mean anything to me, beyond the type of sound I could probably use just about anything for and get a good result.

All I can say is that synths and effects can capture my attention and be really inspiring. Sometime that form is a hardware unit, sometimes a software plugin. I’m aware the cost between the two is somewhat stupid compared to what you get, and I fully admit that it makes little sense.

Where it falls down for me is convenience/simplicity. Having hardware just complicates all your processes and, in my experience, the more complicated your processes are, the less likely you are to come up with the best possible results. That means that even if you do believe that a hardware unit sounds better, you have to compromise in other areas if you want to use it, which may end up dragging down the final result. I've never really cared about the expense, beyond the difficulty in justifying it on a general level. Which, of course, is why I have all this hardware that I never use.