Pashkuli: PMN (Plain Music Notation)

[whyterabbyt]

Y'all remember that one guy who preferred HAZARD to knowing anything and wasted pages in multiple threads arguing against knowing things?

ONYAPOPE or whatever it was. yeah, i found a significant resemblance from the first rehearsed faux-indignant blurt of 'indoctrination'.

Im not sure if there's a specific name for it, but I see this behaviour becoming much more prevalent as result of the internets; there seems to be some sort of narcissim specifically fuelled by rejection of the notion of oneself as a trailblazer. 'aha, look how brilliant i am, for all these fools fail to accept me.'

[whyterabbyt]

So, what is "APL suggestion"?

Referenced some pages ago already by gaggle of hermits.
APL is a programming language which uses glyphs that don't occur in standard ASCII, you needed a special keyboard to type APL code. Sooo awkward.

Its interesting someone mentioned APL, because one thing this reskin of western notation reminded me of was Acme::Buffy for Perl.

Its one of those Perl in-jokes. Here's some valid Acme::Buffy code.

Code: Select all

use Acme::Buffy;
BUffY bUFFY BUffY bUFFY bUfFy buffy BUFfy     buFFY BufFy     BufFY   bUFfy BuFFY buffy       bufFy bUffy bUffY BuFfy BuffY   bUFfy BUfFY BUFFy       Buffy bUffY     
BuFFY BUFFy   BufFy BUFfy BUfFY buFfy BuffY   BuFfy   BUfFY bUffy     buFFy   BUffy   bUffy

The thing about it is that its basically just parsing that to turn it into regular Perl. Luckily noone has tried to pass that off as a vastly superior replacement for Perl, that only those not 'indoctrinated' by the mainstream version can fully appreciate.

[whyterabbyt]

• Ah, that is more for crypto.
• ASCII is a limitation indeed, but back then they did not know better.
• By the way most modern compilators use this concept.
• For example they would make your variable either a single symbol or random comb. of two-three symbols.
• Same with objects, arrays, other definitions.
• It is a form of a compression
• and also encryption..

For the record, noone with any knowledge of compiler design would accept this set of statements as being particularly accurate.

[N__K]

Im not sure if there's a specific name for it, but I see this behaviour becoming much more prevalent as result of the internets; there seems to be some sort of narcissim specifically fuelled by rejection of the notion of oneself as a trailblazer. 'aha, look how brilliant i am, for all these fools fail to accept me.'

Wish to be recognized for something seems to be "pre-programmed" into most people. And it could be argued that turning rejection (experienced internally as adversity coming from the outside) into motivation for trying harder has been an important factor in survival of some cultures and populations.

I'd say that as with many things, internet (as a form of communication) has merely made these aspects of human nature more visible. For example, on forums like these we see in more-or-less permanently written posts exchanges that 50+ years ago would probably have happened as a fleeting oral discussion. Having such conversations in written form makes many things more noticeable.

[Erisian]

Wish to be recognized for something seems to be "pre-programmed" into most people.

Only for a child's need for parental acceptance. Most of us grow out of it. In adults, it's a sign of deep insecurity. If you are genuinely happy with yourself, why should you care what other people think of you?

[N__K]

Wish to be recognized for something seems to be "pre-programmed" into most people.

Only for a child's need for parental acceptance. Most of us grow out of it. In adults, it's a sign of deep insecurity. If you are genuinely happy with yourself, why should you care what other people think of you?

Trying to run a business might be one big reason; becoming a politician another. Any situation where one's survival depends in some way on what other people think of them.

Based on what I've observed in my lifetime - anecdotal as that may be - adults don't seem to really grow out of their insecurities. Many seem to merely grow the motes in their eyes into beams - arguably, I am myself in that category.

[whyterabbyt]

Im not sure if there's a specific name for it, but I see this behaviour becoming much more prevalent as result of the internets; there seems to be some sort of narcissim specifically fuelled by rejection of the notion of oneself as a trailblazer. 'aha, look how brilliant i am, for all these fools fail to accept me.'

Wish to be recognized for something seems to be "pre-programmed" into most people. And it could be argued that turning rejection (experienced internally as adversity coming from the outside) into motivation for trying harder has been an important factor in survival of some cultures and populations.

Well, Im not really talking about ordinary rejection, Im talking about intrinsically antagonistic behaviour which specifically foments that. Its a bit like a messiah complex, but very particularly fuelled by generating a lack of acceptance; a pariah complex if you will.

I'd say that as with many things, internet (as a form of communication) has merely made these aspects of human nature more visible. For example, on forums like these we see in more-or-less permanently written posts exchanges that 50+ years ago would probably have happened as a fleeting oral discussion. Having such conversations in written form makes many things more noticeable.

Oh absolutely, and nowhere is this more obvious than the ongoing mainstreaming of conspiracy theory. However, the main parallel for this specific thing as 'fleeting discussions' seems to more closely resemble the raging drunk pacing the streets at 2pm in the morning, roaring their privations and indignations and self-righteousnes at the passing buses.

[N__K]

[...] a pariah complex if you will.

Sounds like a good term for it

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I admit to having quite a messiah complex - especially in younger days, but still ongoing. And when I lose an argument on objective grounds (and also fail at "rhetoric chess" which usually ensues) I'm very susceptible to "pariah complex".

***

Going back towards subject of this thread: verging on hypocrisy and virtue signalling, I dare ask, have some of us judged too harshly?

For what it's worth, I too have criticized the endeavors of this fellow and argued with him - though on another forum, under a different nickname. But the more I think of it, the more it seems like picking on an easy target.

In the big picture, designing an alternative notation and dramatically arguing for its benefits on a forum is "mostly harmless". So perhaps it could be more constructive to bypass some personal annoyances and see where the overall story goes. Or, perhaps not... I don't know.

In any case, I personally have come to admire the effort, even if its product is not really for me. It's not much different from attempts at gathering an audience for one's creative works, regardless of demand or adversity - I suspect most of us know about how that tends to go In this case, the creativity is expressed via design rather than music...

[vurt]

[...] a pariah complex if you will.

Sounds like a good term for it

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I admit to having quite a messiah complex - especially in younger days, but still ongoing. And when I lose an argument on objective grounds (and also fail at "rhetoric chess" which usually ensues) I'm very susceptible to "pariah complex".

***

Going back towards subject of this thread: verging on hypocrisy and virtue signalling, I dare ask, have some of us judged too harshly?

For what it's worth, I too have criticized the endeavors of this fellow and argued with him - though on another forum, under a different nickname. But the more I think of it, the more it seems like picking on an easy target.

In the big picture, designing an alternative notation and dramatically arguing for its benefits on a forum is "mostly harmless". So perhaps it could be more constructive to bypass some personal annoyances and see where the overall story goes. Or, perhaps not... I don't know.

In any case, I personally have come to admire the effort, even if its product is not really for me. It's not much different from attempts at gathering an audience for one's creative works, regardless of demand or adversity - I suspect most of us know about how that tends to go In this case, the creativity is expressed via design rather than music...

but we don't put down those who have gone before, to push our creations.
if you start in a combative stance, it's only going to continue one way.

[vurt]

also, if you read through the hardware thread, i was actually interested.
not so much from a replacement for the old way, but as an "ooh that looks like an interesting way to play different to a keyboard" in the same way a guitar is different, has the same notes, but the positioning allows/encourages different options for chord voicing and such.

[whyterabbyt]

In the big picture, designing an alternative notation and dramatically arguing for its benefits on a forum is "mostly harmless". So perhaps it could be more constructive to bypass some personal annoyances and see where the overall story goes. Or, perhaps not... I don't know.

Personally, that's a non-starter now. Im actively interested in non-standard notation, and so asked a simple question here ie a simple list of advantages of the proposed system. That was done without prejudice, and completely open-mindedly.

Now, that was an opportunity for arguing for its benefits, dramatically or not.

Unfortunately, I committed a cardinal error; I explained my active interest in non-standard notation.
So 'arguing for its benefits' did not happen. Instead, my mention of aspects of my particular interest in notation in general were removed from context, and used to raise two sets of fallacious assertions; one set about what I was talking about, and the other set about what notation should and should not include.
Neither of these two things pertained to my question at all, which still remains unanswered, after multiple repetitions.
The same pattern makes up the bulk of responses to others within this thread. Spurious grounds are used repeatedly to avoid 'arguing for the benefits'. The tactic consistently used is to find any excuse to deny the validity of the question, or the questioner.
That's not 'mostly harmless' at all. Its an embodiment of toxicity. Its not about arguing for benefits, its not even arguing; its dogmatization.

[Erisian]

Some people might have a use for his system as I said a couple of times but it was his attitude that made it not worth discussing.

[gaggle of hermits]

Some people might have a use for his system as I said a couple of times but it was his attitude that made it not worth discussing.

on the plus side, I got a use out of the thread for at least one reason. I'd never really looked that hard at Rousseau's system and I suddenly realised it's got potential for jotting down ideas when all you have is a simple notepad app (rather than a notepad) that doesn't take handwriting input.

[N__K]

I suspect that dramatic and assertive arguing (which can be perceived as "toxic") is to some extent a cultural difference.

Apologies for offtopic, but so far as I understand, in some countries adversarial rhetorical means are the norm, and may be amplified by the native languages. I'd go as far as to suggest that political disagreements between Eastern and Western Europe are in some part due to (or at least, made worse by) such differences.

In other words, what we (mostly Western?) forum members perceive as adversarial attitude might be a case of clashing cultures, at least to some degree.

(then again, I might just have watched too much Star Trek and am now projecting Klingons here)

[imrae]

In the big picture, designing an alternative notation and dramatically arguing for its benefits on a forum is "mostly harmless".

Actual arguments for its benefits could have led to an interesting and enlightening discussion. Instead we got ignorance, deflection and insinuation. The most prominent arguments were:

• a genetic fallacy ("traditional notation comes from the medieval church therefore it is bad")
• a complaint that the existing system requires too many "boilerplate" stave elements - but PMN is intended to be typeset by a computer and appears more difficult to write by hand.
• a complaint that the existing system is needlessly biased towards diatonic music, whereas PMN is truly 12-tone - but dismissing (without explanation) Schoenberg's take on this as "on the entertaining side, rather than really something useful."

It's difficult to learn much from such arguments.