PG8X (inspired by the JX8P): new beta version uploaded

[Spitfire31]

Wow - doesn't sound half bad!

Can't wait until the Mac AU version is for sale!

/Joachim

Well, sorry. I am not planning to get into AU at the moment. But I will try to get an Mac VST version running....

Martin

Great! I use Plogue Bidule AU plug in to interface VSTs with Digital Performer, for instance. Looking forward to it!

Best,

Joachim

[electro]

Is the rewrite going to have the same plugin ID?

[martin_l]

Is the rewrite going to have the same plugin ID?

I have not really thought about that. I used to try different versions with the same plugin ID on my machine without problems, so I assumed I could just re-use it again. If it causes any real problems, let me know, then I will give it a new one. I have to say, though, that even the current one is not yet officially registered. Guess, I should do so...

Anyway, any thoughts on this are welcome.


Cheers,
Martin

[xybre]

Okay I almost didn't even bother downloading this..



Boy, was I in for a surprise.

It has great attack characteristics, making a nice percussive pluck. It can produce some amazingly clean low-end, I've been dying for something like this.

It sounds like a lot of the patches have reverb.. but there's only a chorus unit, its all being done through long release times.

The "Downsampler Filter Stages" added a noticeable amount of clarity, it was instant; on top of that I only got a 3% CPU hit with everything set to maximum on a polyphonic patch.

I noticed a sort of "glitchy delay" in the background, what is that and how can I make it louder? It's most noticeable on the "second mono" voice setting (mono button with yellow light), and certain low ranges of portamento above zero.

I'd also love a manual for this, since some of these parameters don't seem familiar to me. I'm looking at the JX-8P and PG-800 manuals, but I feel like there's a lot of assumed knowledge.


If you're working on a new version, other than a manual here's my wishlist:

• - A manual, for instance whats the difference between the yellow and red voice modes? Whats the difference between the dynamics modes? What is "self noise"?
  - "Snap-back" legato mode, where a single note held will glide back and forth between subsequently pressed/released keys.
  - Polyphonic portamento mode, where the notes slide in from the previous note.
  - A lock for oversampling settings so I don't have to change them every time I switch a preset.
  - Configurable oscillator drift/detuning range.
  - Fix: The voice poly/unison/mono switches don't display the actual value when the UI has been closed and reopened.
  - Fix: The mode and dynamics sliders require too much travel time.

"She may not look like much kid, but she's got it where it counts."

[layzer]

Can't wait till this goes all C++ for the
performance gains and extended patch manipulation features!

[martin_l]

Okay I almost didn't even bother downloading this..



Boy, was I in for a surprise.

Hope it was a good surprise...

I noticed a sort of "glitchy delay" in the background, what is that and how can I make it louder? It's most noticeable on the "second mono" voice setting (mono button with yellow light), and certain low ranges of portamento above zero.

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by this "glitchy delay". I don't think it is an intended effect. Could you post an audio example?

I'd also love a manual for this, since some of these parameters don't seem familiar to me. I'm looking at the JX-8P and PG-800 manuals, but I feel like there's a lot of assumed knowledge.

Well, most of the parameters should be covered by the JX-8P manual. Things which are not covered there are the Oversapling settings, the internal noise amount and the chorus parameters in the 'Settings' panel.

The Downsampler Stages are simply the number of 6db Filter states at just below Nyquist, which are applied to the signal before downsampling. The Quality settings controls the additional oversampling in the oscillator. Here is some background to that. A large part of the synth, i.e. low pass filter and vca work with an 4 fold oversampling for Host-Samplerates of 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz, and 2 fold oversampling at host samplerates of 88.2 and 96 kHz. The oscillators themselves are working at an even higher samplerate. I force the frequencies to be divisors of that high samplerate, which means that at this high samplerate there is _NO_ aliasing. But, the frequencies deviate a bit from the target frequencies. The higher the oversampling is, the more accurate the frequencies are. For "Quality=Auto" the oversampling is determined automatically depending on the pitch of the note. If "manual", they are given explicitely. Note that the downsampling to 4x samplerate and later to the samplerate does introduce some aliasing, but the effect is not very strong.

The "Self noise" is a bit of white noise which is introduced just before the low pass filter, and gives this particular sound of the filter, especially when used with some resonance.

The chorus speed and depth just modifies the corresponding parameters of the chorus.

The different Voice modes are:

• - Poly (red): normal polyphonic mode. When a key is pressed and one voice is already playing this note, the voice is retriggered. Otherwise the oldest voice is "stolen".
  - Poly (yellow): round robin mode. Always a new voice is triggered. In this mode, the voices can be detuned with the "Detune" knob.
  - Unison (red): Two voices are playing in unison (leaving three voice polyphony). The two voices can be detuned.
  - Unison (yellow): as above, but the two voices are offset by one octave.
  - Mono (red): Only one voice plays as a monophonic synth.
  - Mono (yellow): All six voices are playing the same note. Voice can be detuned

If you're working on a new version, other than a manual here's my wishlist:

• - A manual, for instance whats the difference between the yellow and red voice modes? Whats the difference between the dynamics modes? What is "self noise"?

See above. I am planning to write a manual for the new version, though.

• - "Snap-back" legato mode, where a single note held will glide back and forth between subsequently pressed/released keys.

That should actually work in the MONO modes.

• - Polyphonic portamento mode, where the notes slide in from the previous note.

That is a bit tricky. How do you assign to which note a given note is gliding, when you change from one chord to the next? In the moment portamento should work, but might not give the expected effect. I still have to figure out the best algorithm for that.

• - A lock for oversampling settings so I don't have to change them every time I switch a preset.

So far I made it per patch, since the best settings might depend on the patch, e.g. filter settings. I was thinking of using only the automatic settings in the next version, but a 'lock' button also might be a good idea.

• - Configurable oscillator drift/detuning range.

Since the JX-8P has DCO's which don't drift, I did not include any drift in the model. As hinted at above, you can change the detuning in some Voice modes.

• - Fix: The voice poly/unison/mono switches don't display the actual value when the UI has been closed and reopened.

That is a bug I have not seen before. Which host are you using?

• - Fix: The mode and dynamics sliders require too much travel time.

The travel distance in Synthedit is given. At least, I don't know how to control it. In the planned C++ version the sliders will have a shorter distance, in fact they will move 1-1 with the mouse pointer.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


Cheers,
Martin

[xybre]

Hope it was a good surprise...

Yes! I am pleased with it.

Could you explain a bit more what you mean by this "glitchy delay". I don't think it is an intended effect. Could you post an audio example?

Perhaps not, but I think it sounds really cool actually.

Dry Signal, exhibiting glitch
Signal Enhanced to make glitch more noticable

Well, most of the parameters should be covered by the JX-8P manual. Things which are not covered there are the Oversapling settings, the internal noise amount and the chorus parameters in the 'Settings' panel.
...
The "Self noise" is a bit of white noise which is introduced just before the low pass filter, and gives this particular sound of the filter, especially when used with some resonance.

The chorus speed and depth just modifies the corresponding parameters of the chorus.

The different Voice modes are...

Awesome, thanks for the explanation!

That should actually work in the MONO modes.

Oh, it does, oops. I was experimenting with sounds that have short decay times, so I was unable to create the correct conditions to hear it triggered. Disregard that.

That is a bit tricky. How do you assign to which note a given note is gliding, when you change from one chord to the next? In the moment portamento should work, but might not give the expected effect. I still have to figure out the best algorithm for that.

Hmm, I see what you mean. Whats the most "musical" result?

• - A lock for oversampling settings so I don't have to change them every time I switch a preset.

So far I made it per patch, since the best settings might depend on the patch, e.g. filter settings. I was thinking of using only the automatic settings in the next version, but a 'lock' button also might be a good idea.

I can understand the per-patch settings, its just that most patches will sound better at higher quality settings.

Since the JX-8P has DCO's which don't drift, I did not include any drift in the model. As hinted at above, you can change the detuning in some Voice modes.

I figured as much, I just happen to like the sound of drifting oscillators.

• - Fix: The voice poly/unison/mono switches don't display the actual value when the UI has been closed and reopened.

That is a bug I have not seen before. Which host are you using?

I'm using EnergyXT2, I should have some time later to test it in another DAW.

The travel distance in Synthedit is given. At least, I don't know how to control it. In the planned C++ version the sliders will have a shorter distance, in fact they will move 1-1 with the mouse pointer.

I don't mind the long travel time of the other sliders, only the "switching" sliders. My ideal UIs have the cursor disappear when dragging a slider, combined with "infinite dragging", some sort of highlight on the active slider, and the slider would have fine adjustment when holding shift, then when letting off the slider, the cursor would reappear right where the slider is (rather than at the edge of the screen somewhere).

But most UIs don't do that unfortunately, so I assume its a bit of a technical challenge, and I doubt SE can do anything of the sort.

Thanks for the synth and for entertaining my ideas.

"Nested Quotes have reached cataclysmic proportions in your post. Please revise and try again!"

[androidlove]

Before I sleep, I want to thank you for a wonderful evening. I've been enjoying the Kujashi patches. You've restored my faith in software synthesis. I'll get some dosh to you soon, but I can't afford what this is worth.

[martin_l]

Perhaps not, but I think it sounds really cool actually.

Dry Signal, exhibiting glitch
Signal Enhanced to make glitch more noticable

Could you send me the patch (fxp or fxb file), please? That sound could be just due to the settings, but it also could be an artefact. I would like to see how you got this sound.

Hmm, I see what you mean. Whats the most "musical" result?

I will spend some more time trying to understand what the real things does.

I can understand the per-patch settings, its just that most patches will sound better at higher quality settings.

Well, I developed that thing on my old Athlon XP box, where it took up to 20% CPU. So I felt it was crucial to allow users to optimize the settings as needed.

I figured as much, I just happen to like the sound of drifting oscillators.

Once the whole thing is working in the new C++ version, I am planning to build also an extended version, which does contain some sort of oscillator drift. But I have not thought about the details yet.

I'm using EnergyXT2, I should have some time later to test it in another DAW.

I will see whether I can get a demo version to reproduce the bug.

I don't mind the long travel time of the other sliders, only the "switching" sliders. My ideal UIs have the cursor disappear when dragging a slider, combined with "infinite dragging", some sort of highlight on the active slider, and the slider would have fine adjustment when holding shift, then when letting off the slider, the cursor would reappear right where the slider is (rather than at the edge of the screen somewhere).

The new version will highlight the active controller and will have a 1-1 motion, as well as a 'zoomed' motion when using 'shift' or 'ctrl' (i forgot which one...)

Cheers,
Martin

[xybre]

Perhaps not, but I think it sounds really cool actually.

Dry Signal, exhibiting glitch
Signal Enhanced to make glitch more noticable

Could you send me the patch (fxp or fxb file), please? That sound could be just due to the settings, but it also could be an artefact. I would like to see how you got this sound.

Here you go:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/121779/VST/PG-8 ... arimba.fxp

I'm using EnergyXT2, I should have some time later to test it in another DAW.

I will see whether I can get a demo version to reproduce the bug.

Hmm. It might be intermittent. Damn heisenbugs.

http://www.energy-xt.com/index.php?id=0201

The new version will highlight the active controller and will have a 1-1 motion, as well as a 'zoomed' motion when using 'shift' or 'ctrl' (i forgot which one...)

Awesome!

[martin_l]

Here you go:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/121779/VST/PG-8 ... arimba.fxp

OK. I tried the patch. I am still not quite sure what exactly you are referring to. Do you mean the clicks at the beginning of the tone, or the zipper noise during the decay?

The zipper noise is caused by the envelopes, which are not smooth, but quantised with about 5ms timesteps. This is similar to the harware.

Here is a sound example, comparing the plugin with the hardware.
http://soundcloud.com/mlvst/haunted-mar ... nd-example

The patch parameters are identical, with the exception of the decay. I needed to give a slightly longer decay on the plugin, as the envelopes allow shorter times as the hardware. I might adjust that in a future version, but I think allowing for more snappy envelopes might not be too bad, as the JX8P was often criticised for it's slow envelops.

I'm using EnergyXT2, I should have some time later to test it in another DAW.

...

Hmm. It might be intermittent. Damn heisenbugs.

I can confirm the behaviour in reaper4. I dont know yet whether to invest some time to fix it, as I rather spend the time on the new native version.



Cheers,
Martin

[xybre]

or the zipper noise during the decay?

I think that's it, yes.

The zipper noise is caused by the envelopes, which are not smooth, but quantised with about 5ms timesteps. This is similar to the harware.

Here is a sound example, comparing the plugin with the hardware.
http://soundcloud.com/mlvst/haunted-mar ... nd-example

Neat. It's less pronounced, but on the second note you can hear it "bouncing" into the distance.

It seems to happen the most when sounds portamento on the decay.

I can confirm the behaviour in reaper4. I dont know yet whether to invest some time to fix it, as I rather spend the time on the new native version.

It's not a huge deal, I'd say focus on the native version.

-x

[Katzenjammer]

Been playing around with PG8X in VFX on Mac. Really hope you get a Mac-version together.

[martin_l]

Dear All,

Here is a first screen shot of the new native pg-8x. The major changes to the old version (of the GUI) is that the new one is a bit smaller, and all the separate readouts have been combined in a master readout, which shows the name and value of a controller, when the mouser hovers over it.



I also smoothed out some glitches with the knobs, and the VSTGUI version has a nicer 'feel' to it, as the knobs move one-to-one with the mouse (a finer motion is possible by holding SHIFT).

The GUI is not in it's final form. I expect to slightly change some things, as I implement the DSP part and the patch handling part, but now I will concentrate mainly on the DSP part.

For those, interested in the further progress: I will post about it on my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/MLVST

Cheers,
Martin

[bpblog]

looks awesome, looking forward to the release.