Live 12 or Bitwig 5.1

[SLiC]

I also don't understand example with midi only changing structure. From arrangement standpoint it is normal to shift whole song key(audio and midi), but neither Ableton, not Bitwig can do it. When I need it, I just use Cubase. Bitwig covers creative side for me.

Ableton 12 can now do it, it has key and scale awareness and the notes change to the selected scale when selected - there are about 40 scales built in, the usual stuff, modes, blues etc through to real odd ball stuff like Iwato - these scales don't just work on notes, they even work on things like filters through the rack- its well implemented.

So, you are saying that it can handle both audio and midi in Live 12?

No, just Midi (that was what we were discussing). Obviously both Live and Bitwig can transpose audio manually (change its key) but neither has automatic sample key detection (which would be required to automate the process).

The 'scale' is a different matter, I am not aware of anything could automaticity detect the scale a polyphonic clip was in and change it to another scale, but you could do that manually in Melodyne 'or' do pitch to midi in Ableton and then use a midi instrument and change scales etc. I often use Pitch to Midi in Live just to analyse a sample as it identifies the pitches in a polyphonic sample. It seems possible to me that Live could (with a combination of this and the scale functions) identify the key and even scales in a polyphonic sample which if added to the browser (with 'find similar sounds) would be incredibly powerful....

That said, Midi will always have a lot of advantages of Audio in terms of editing, if you have a simple monophonic vocal sample then anything is possible, if you had a complex sample of a 40 piece orchestra loop/sample then I am not so sure...

[Stan Navi]

I also don't understand example with midi only changing structure. From arrangement standpoint it is normal to shift whole song key(audio and midi), but neither Ableton, not Bitwig can do it. When I need it, I just use Cubase. Bitwig covers creative side for me.

Ableton 12 can now do it, it has key and scale awareness and the notes change to the selected scale when selected - there are about 40 scales built in, the usual stuff, modes, blues etc through to real odd ball stuff like Iwato - these scales don't just work on notes, they even work on things like filters through the rack- its well implemented.

So, you are saying that it can handle both audio and midi in Live 12?

No, just Midi (that was what we were discussing). Obviously both Live and Bitwig can transpose audio manually (change its key) but neither has automatic sample key detection (which would be required to automate the process).

The 'scale' is a different matter, I am not aware of anything could automaticity detect the scale a polyphonic clip was in and change it to another scale, but you could do that manually in Melodyne 'or' do pitch to midi in Ableton and then use a midi instrument and change scales etc. I often use Pitch to Midi in Live just to analyse a sample as it identifies the pitches in a polyphonic sample. It seems possible to me that Live could (with a combination of this and the scale functions) identify the key and even scales in a polyphonic sample which if added to the browser (with 'find similar sounds) would be incredibly powerful....

That said, Midi will always have a lot of advantages of Audio in terms of editing, if you have a simple monophonic vocal sample then anything is possible, if you had a complex sample of a 40 piece orchestra loop/sample then I am not so sure...

My first post was about whole song scale shifting - midi and audio. It is common issue from arrangement point of view. Ableton and Bitwig can't do it fast, but Cubase can. It is laughable when you suggest to pitch each sample. For complex arrangements it is PITA. I don't see advantages to shift scale only midi. It is like comping only audio in Bitwig, it feels half baked.

[PieBerger]

It is like comping only audio in Bitwig, it feels half baked.

Rather a fully functional audio comping solution than no comping at all, which is presumably the dilemma the devs were faced with. What was implemented is great, so calling it half-baked is not really fair imo. Ableton are a huge company with way more resources and had a 10 year head start, so naturally they were able to roll out a more complete comping solution in one go. Rather than calling it half baked, we should be pleased that the devs were able to roll out something decent with a fraction of the resources in considerably less time, compared to their direct competition and thus optimistic that MIDI comping will come to Bitwig in the near future. A big MIDI themed update would go down a treat imo, with comping, piano roll improvements etc. all rolled into one. Bitwig took their sweet time with MSEG, but they really delivered with it being spread throughout the DAW and I can well imagine them overhauling MIDI in a similar fashion.

[SLiC]

My first post was about whole song scale shifting - midi and audio. It is common issue from arrangement point of view. Ableton and Bitwig can't do it fast, but Cubase can. It is laughable when you suggest to pitch each sample. For complex arrangements it is PITA. I don't see advantages to shift scale only midi. It is like comping only audio in Bitwig, it feels half baked.

I agree, that why I use Studio One which can do far more than just audio and midi song scale shifting, it can follow chord track changes for audio and midi as well. As I said, given neither Live nor Bitwig offer native audio key detection (or basic pitch correction) I suspect they are a long way behind audio key shifting, but at least Live can now do midi key shifting natively, we should applauded this at least!

[Ou_Tis]

IDK about Ableton 12 but in 11 it seems the only way to select nodes is to select an entire time section---no way to only select the top nodes, or lasso select. While you can right-click on a node to edit its value, I don't see any indication of node position that can be similarly edited as in Bitwig. Ableton seems really terrible for editing nodes relative to Bitwig.

OTOH some plugins sound good in Ableton but when I open the Ableton project in Bitwig and set the routings and levels to their Bitwig equivalents they sound like crap.

One of the worst things about Ableton 11 is the gui lag (only with some plugins? well, with the ones I use, obviously): the gui does not adjust for latency, so trying to locate positions while playing audio is a huge PIA.

If Bitwig is ever able to properly record pitchbend automation from the Rise 2 I may switch back. Ableton is so annoying and ridiculous.

[Ou_Tis]

My first post was about whole song scale shifting - midi and audio. It is common issue from arrangement point of view. Ableton and Bitwig can't do it fast, but Cubase can. It is laughable when you suggest to pitch each sample. For complex arrangements it is PITA. I don't see advantages to shift scale only midi. It is like comping only audio in Bitwig, it feels half baked.

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

[Stan Navi]

My first post was about whole song scale shifting - midi and audio. It is common issue from arrangement point of view. Ableton and Bitwig can't do it fast, but Cubase can. It is laughable when you suggest to pitch each sample. For complex arrangements it is PITA. I don't see advantages to shift scale only midi. It is like comping only audio in Bitwig, it feels half baked.

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

[machinesworking]

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

To your point though, while that may be true, I don't think ARA is that aware that it will work on dozens of tracks at the same time? but I shouldn't be quoted on that.

[bundoo]

Just realised there is a normalise shortcut in bitwig which is great.

[pdxindy]

oops

[qtheerearranger]

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

To your point though, while that may be true, I don't think ARA is that aware that it will work on dozens of tracks at the same time? but I shouldn't be quoted on that.

I’m confused on what you’re asking exactly. I do know in studio one with the best version of melodyne you can do multi track melodyne editing of course with ara.

[SLiC]

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

To your point though, while that may be true, I don't think ARA is that aware that it will work on dozens of tracks at the same time? but I shouldn't be quoted on that.

I’m confused on what you’re asking exactly. I do know in studio one with the best version of melodyne you can do multi track melodyne editing of course with ara.

Yup, Melodyne Studio does multitrack simultaneous editing- (that is what I use with S1)

[jclosed]

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

Well - Of course Melodyne does a bit of a better job. I bloody better have to do that for a €700 price point. To be honest - While Melodyne is great, it adds that hefty price (for Melodyne Studio) for something that is completely free in Cubase. Sure - If you very often have to shift complete multi-track songs in key, then it is maybe worth the money. But for those very rare cases I need it, I rather do some extra work than drop €700 (€649 at discount at this moment) for that.
The build-in stuff in Cubase does a great job, especially if you take in consideration it's completely free.

[machinesworking]

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

Well - Of course Melodyne does a bit of a better job. I bloody better have to do that for a €700 price point. To be honest - While Melodyne is great, it adds that hefty price (for Melodyne Studio) for something that is completely free in Cubase. Sure - If you very often have to shift complete multi-track songs in key, then it is maybe worth the money. But for those very rare cases I need it, I rather do some extra work than drop €700 (€649 at discount at this moment) for that.
The build-in stuff in Cubase does a great job, especially if you take in consideration it's completely free.

Yes price points matter to us home studio types, but the question wasn't about price points, it was about sound quality. This one isn't like the silly summing bus arguments people get into, you can literally hear the difference. If you ever get personally interested in picking up Melodyne Studio, the upgrades from Essential included in some DAWs and plugin packages often go on sale for $200 or less, that's how I got my copy.

[SLiC]

Doesn't the pitch shifting in Cubase cause significantly more artifacts than Melodyne? Is that what you're going for?

I don't know about your problems with Cubase, but in my case Cubase is quite accurate.

He's just referencing that when it comes to pitch shifting audio, you're probably not going to beat Melodyne using a native algorithm.

Well - Of course Melodyne does a bit of a better job. I bloody better have to do that for a €700 price point. To be honest - While Melodyne is great, it adds that hefty price (for Melodyne Studio) for something that is completely free in Cubase. Sure - If you very often have to shift complete multi-track songs in key, then it is maybe worth the money. But for those very rare cases I need it, I rather do some extra work than drop €700 (€649 at discount at this moment) for that.
The build-in stuff in Cubase does a great job, especially if you take in consideration it's completely free.

It isn't about shifting songs in key, its about editing single tracks that are 'polyphonic', Cubase can only edit monophonic audio (at least it could last time I used it!) and even mono lines can have sustain (overlaps) creating polyphony on guitar and piano etc, even if you are only playing single notes, but often you will have at least 2 notes at the same time...

If you are editing audio chords, Melodyne will break it down to individual notes, so you can even change a major chord to a minor chord etc...of an audio file! It really is 'magic! You may be able to pitch a sample up or down to change key, but melodyne can make an audio sample go from a major chord to a minor chord!

If you just have a monophonic line then the Cubase (or Even Reason) pitch correction may serve you well, especially if its just a tweak...

PS- I also only paid $200 upgrading from what was free with S1, I do more audio editing than midi, it was aa no brainier for me.