Open303 - open source 303 emulation project - collaborators wanted

[eidenk]

You're certainly a motivated and talented person. Unfortunately that's still not enough to make me want to employ you.

[antto]

i'll stick with the guys who really like the 303 sound like i do

[deraudrl]

You're certainly a motivated and talented person. Unfortunately that's still not enough to make me want to employ you.

+1.

Doesn't sound like a fun guy to have for a boss in any case, know what I mean?

[blurk]

You're certainly a motivated and talented person. Unfortunately that's still not enough to make me want to employ you.

It's not that crazy a sentiment. I'm an experienced software developer (but not a DSP developer) and I've seen talented people that are difficult to work with.

[deraudrl]

You're certainly a motivated and talented person. Unfortunately that's still not enough to make me want to employ you.

It's not that crazy a sentiment. I'm an experienced software developer (but not a DSP developer) and I've seen talented people that are difficult to work with.

The craziness (and a truly incredible amount of arrogance) is in the assumption that Antto was in any way seeking employment from him.

[Muon Software Ltd]

i haven't given up that kind of thing, i have explained in detail how my filters and oscillators work, envelopes, curves, slides, sequencer
what more?!
i'm not convincing anyone to go after me, i am just working on my own, and sharing what i come accross at, while providing enough details so others can judge for themselves
tanh(hpf(sawtooth)*-amp) <- you really need code for that?! oh god!
"i've added a HP filter in the feedback path.. it takes of the resonance for low cutoffs" <- you can't figure how to implement this in a ladder filter?

In an open source project, the way it works is that you put your work into the common, shared codebase, and other people can improve it and fill in the gaps. What you are doing is writing your own code, while we all watch over your shoulder. People joining the project should not have to replicate what you have done, it should be already there for improvement. That's how the collaboration works and that's what makes open source special.

So I guess my question is answered. You have no interest in the open-source nature of this project. OK, I'll take that onboard and we'll move on.

oh, you wanted to employ me? what for? to take my synth and sell it? i would rather starve but not sell this project, not this one
no, i don't want to sell it, it must be freeware, and i would definately colaborate with someone else, who is less "cowardish" like all the guys who helped me so far with various things
..in contrast with you, who just hints "i know everything, but i won't tell you.."
keep it to yourself then, big deal, sooner or later we'll know enough to get a good general 303 model here

No, I wasn't referring to you, or me. I said "people LIKE me employ people LIKE you". The only things that would persuade me personally to employ someone is the quality of their code and analysis skills, and their ability to work well with others. Which of those do you think that I think you lack?

i don't think so, just because you left your 303 project to gather dust doesn't mean that the guys here aren't motivated enough

Young man, you are in a world of your own right now. I don't see hardly any of this thread where you are bouncing ideas off other people, gathering contributions and collaborating. I just see that you are rambling on about what *you* are doing *alone* in your room. When you run out of energy to do this project, it will gather dust too. I've been around in this industry for more than a decade and I have watched this particular scenario play out a thousand times.

Guy gets interested, guy writes a synth, the synth is somewhere on a scale between average and awesome, guy grows tired of synth, website gathers dust.

maybe if you were here since the begining of this discussion (you know, the 30 pages) things would have been clearer for you, you would know what we were doing..

I have been here since the very first post. Now I realise that you are not in fact interested in the open source side of this project, I can't be bothered to read it any more.

@Dave, Come on let's be honest here. You are not even a little close with tau mk2 compared to a real one. When rebirth first came out folks reviewed it as "Identical" too. I would love to hear a TB-303 that sounds "identical" to tau mk2!

Now that's odd - I have one right here. When I sit down and play notes on my 303 and play notes on Tau Bassline MkII it sounds the same. Funnily enough, all our beta testers (all 303 owners) also said it sounded just fine.

Now, if something better has come along since, that doesn't make Tau2 any less of what it is nor what it was designed to be.


Antto - this is your future if you go further down the road of 303 emulation. Some little weenies will say "it sounds great" and some other little weenies will say "it doesn't sound like a 303". You will only ever be able to satisfy yourself, and once you've done that there really is little point pursuing the whole thing any further.

@Muon: as you must have read by now, I have been sending antto samples for his project way before this topic ever started. As for his approach, I had my doubts at first, but considering the quality his work and talking to some electrical engineers with dsp knowledge, they kinda praised his approach in a way. I dunno.. The results are here and imo he's not really spinning arround in circles. You said he doesn't contribute his finding: on the contrary, read this topic carefully and he has shared every single bit of information... but the medium is not that great ofcourse..
As for a decent sourceforge or alternative repository where all files and research data are hosted: GREAT. I can't agree more. But that's up for the topicstarter and codebase-starter: Robin. I can't really imagine that antto's synth edit stuff is of any for use for the cpp project. I checked Robin's code briefly and it appeared to be well built from the basis.

The problem I have with him is that this is supposed to be an open-source project. If he's not checking edits into the code, he's not really contributing. Even if he has put every little detail in the thread that someone might need to follow in his footsteps, someone still has to sit down and sift 35+ pages to find the nuggets of information, decipher them and then code them. Nobody so far has bothered, and I guess nobody probably will. The whole open-source part of this will wither and die without the energy of someone like Antto and quite honestly he's made it clear that his only purpose in life is to do his own, free, closed-source synthedit 303 clone. Well fair dos, but this thread says "open source 303 emulation, collaborators wanted" at the top and so far no-one is actually collaborating on an open-source 303 emulation. I'm only here because I'm interested in maybe working on such a project, I'm not really interested in anything else.

Debunking all these myths (I think every clone so far - hard and software - can be debunked some way) on a page along with open source code in whatever format would be a very noble project.

It would indeed. There is so much rubbish written about the 303, as I have already said you'd think it was powered by magic acid pixies rather than electronics. Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to get that out of Antto, only a long forum thread and yet another closed-source 303 clone.

The craziness (and a truly incredible amount of arrogance) is in the assumption that Antto was in any way seeking employment from him.

Good job that wasn't the assumption that I was making then. As I said *very* clearly, people LIKE me employ people LIKE him. That doesn't specifically say that I would want to employ HIM.

My concern, also clearly stated in this thread, is that this industry has a poor record on finding and developing talent. There are people all over the world working on cool plugins who do a bit of good work and then fizzle out. Quite often, they work alone in their spare time and the industry simply does little to help them into gainful employment before their interest wavers. For all the cool plugins that get written, it seems to me like only a fraction of a % of people doing it turn it into a career.

It's not just me either, I talk to owners of other businesses and they say the same thing - how on earth do we find qualified people to do this kind of work? I was only wondering out loud here in this thread if open-source projects were a good way for potential employers to identify coding talent. That is to say, people with good coding and analysis skills who work well with others.

That is neither crazy, nor arrogant. Antto isn't contributing code to the open source project. Although this thread now seems to revolve around him as the world watches over his shoulder in case he tweaks his HPFs again, that part of what I said was not specifically related to him.

Sorry for the interruption ladies and gentlemen, now back to your regular programming.

[Caco]

I agree with a lot of Dave's sentiments here. As a synth user i was really excited to see Robin start this project off but so far it hasn't really captured the attention of possible contributors.

The code needs hosting somewhere so that people can find it and download it rather than hunt through a very long thread.

The information needs collating somewhere as well, such as a wiki. Antto - although you have said you don't wish to add code would you be willing to contribute your knowledge to a wiki? Maybe add the samples you have to a wiki as well?

Come on guys lets try and get this project off the ground and help Robin

[mystran]

Here's some thoughts:

The concept of 'the project' and 'the code' is a bit different in typical open-source model from what it is for a standard company project. Essentially, the essence of open-source is forks, which means anyone can take some code, and make a new version of that. Licenses like GPL then say they should also give the modified source back if they distribute their results, but that's essentially just to keep changes available for merges, which is how you bring the forks back to a more manageable number of versions.

Anyone complaining that there is no public source code repository can basically blame themselves only, because there is nothing preventing anyone from creating one. Obviously if there ends up being multiple repositories tracking the same stuff, it might make sense to close one of them as redundant, but that's it.

Trying to manage open-source projects with a committee is possible (and often done), and works approximately as well as fighting windmills. If you want to do something, then do something; it's open-source if you put the source up. Other's will then figure if it's any good and hopefully tell you about the changes they made.

[Muon Software Ltd]

Anyone complaining that there is no public source code repository can basically blame themselves only, because there is nothing preventing anyone from creating one

I'm not so sure that's the case. Robin hasn't, as far as I can tell, chosen a license under which he is distributing his code. I just downloaded it from the first page of this thread, and no license is included.

If I'm looking at source with no license attached, I can either assume its been placed in the public domain as a free-for-all, take and do what you want *OR* it remains as someone's copyright and they don't need to mention that because copyright is inherent as soon as the work is created.

I don't know what Robin's intentions were when releasing his code with regards to copyright, so at the moment I think treating it as being his property is the best way to proceed until that is clarified.

Anyway, where IS robin? I'm still waiting for him to make that fix to his frequency analyser plugin

Kind regards
Dave

[mystran]

Anyone complaining that there is no public source code repository can basically blame themselves only, because there is nothing preventing anyone from creating one

I'm not so sure that's the case. Robin hasn't, as far as I can tell, chosen a license under which he is distributing his code. I just downloaded it from the first page of this thread, and no license is included.

Ah, I see, that indeed seems to be the case. I thought the license debate at least got settled since it was approximately the first thing discussed.

I don't know what Robin's intentions were when releasing his code with regards to copyright, so at the moment I think treating it as being his property is the best way to proceed until that is clarified.

Yeah, I'm afraid that's correct. Doesn't prevent someone from creating a repository though (just can't import Robin's code).

[Muon Software Ltd]

Robin's last words on the subject of licensing, as far as I can tell, were this:-

bottom line: yes, it's probably indeed the way to go to just point the user to the VST SDK. i will consider this.

...but later. for now, let's tweak the dsp algos...

So not really settled as you can see.

Yeah, I'm afraid that's correct. Doesn't prevent someone from creating a repository though (just can't import Robin's code).

A repository with no code is probably just as bad as no respository. Besides, we don't know if Robin prefers Sourceforge, Googlecode, CVS, SVN, Git, etc. etc.. I think the responsibility for sorting out all that really lies with him.

[rv0]

well.. contributions don't have to be code, esp. not for a project like this.
most of the stuff is analysis and gathering information, and - although this topic is a bad platform - imo that is going just fine..
I really don't get why Muon is "attacking" Antto for not sharing his 'code'.. His code is useless for any other project, is not cross platform, etc.. I don't understand why Muon makes such a case out of it. Antto is sharing his functions, what more could he do from his development point of view?


now the biggest problem here is lack of a decent platform.
Robin started this out with the intention of using this topic as a platform.
I'd say after all these pages, it's clear this approach has failed.
There's no one to blame really, there were no rules from the beginning.

Right now we're all talking in circles a bit. I agree with Muon on most things he said, apart from the "blaming" part.
I also agree that Robin needs to give his views on what system to use (sourceforge,etc..)

Where are we going next?
I could set up a wiki tonight.
Now I have my own hosting I could set up easily, unless someone has a better or free alternative? Input please!
My only involvement so far has been sharing samples and information, so I'm definatly not the one to make decisions or set up pages.

As for TAU bassline sounding the same as a 303: sounds like a challenge.
I'll download the demo asap and check it out.


My personal views:
- ditch the aciddevil name and go with Open303 or something like that
- go for an exact replica of the 303 functionality first, without minding sound quality that much
- afterwards extend the functionality
- make sure it all is well designed from the basis to accomodate the above points (nice OO design..)
- set up an xml pattern standard + transformations for other software
- try to find a cross platform solution with shared codebase, if possible.

[Muon Software Ltd]

I really don't get why Muon is "attacking" Antto for not sharing his 'code'.. His code is useless for any other project, is not cross platform, etc.. I don't understand why Muon makes such a case out of it. Antto is sharing his functions, what more could he do from his development point of view?

Attack? at what point did I attack *anyone*?

I pointed out to the guy that there was a win/win situation possible if he contributed code to the project. He wasn't interested, and threw a hissy fit. Whatever he's doing in this thread is great I'm sure, but the open-sourcers will need to verify, implement and then test any of his suggestions (if they can find and understand them in this mess of a thread). If he's *already* got a tested, working implementation but not sharing it then that is just wasting everyone's time. Seriously, if he's not interested in an open-source emulation of the 303 he's in the wrong thread and should start his own.

As for TAU bassline sounding the same as a 303: sounds like a challenge. I'll download the demo asap and check it out.

Well enjoy - but it isn't relevent to this thread or the open-source project, so if you feel compelled to post any conclusions you might draw I'd appreciate it if you did so elsewhere as I think we're already about 100 miles offtopic in this thread.

My personal views:
- ditch the aciddevil name and go with Open303 or something like that
- go for an exact replica of the 303 functionality first, without minding sound quality that much
- afterwards extend the functionality
- make sure it all is well designed from the basis to accomodate the above points (nice OO design..)
- set up an xml pattern standard + transformations for other software
- try to find a cross platform solution with shared codebase, if possible.

All sounds good to me. Now all we need to do is wait for Robin to come back to this thread.

[rv0]

Attack? at what point did I attack *anyone*?

well that's the impression you gave me.
either it's the fact that english is not my native language, or it's the way you made your point.
either way, nobody was harmed

I pointed out to the guy that there was a win/win situation possible if he contributed code to the project. He wasn't interested, and threw a hissy fit.

what code could he possibly share? it's a synth edit project, his "code" is of no use for an open source cpp project.
His KNOWHOW is of great use though.
The fact that you make a commercial 303 clone, and have the knowhow makes me wonder what you are doing in this topic, no offense meant.

Seriously, if he's not interested in an open-source emulation of the 303 he's in the wrong thread and should start his own.

i shouldn't be talking for him (and neither should you), but he is interested in an open-source emulation.
"source" is just not related to "sourcecode".
if we create an open platform of information, anyone can make an implementation in any language of choice.
Keeping it all strictly code based is not such a good idea and esp. not if it's done all in this topic.. But I think you agree.

As for TAU bassline sounding the same as a 303: sounds like a challenge. I'll download the demo asap and check it out.

Well enjoy - but it isn't relevent to this thread or the open-source project, so if you feel compelled to post any conclusions you might draw I'd appreciate it if you did so elsewhere as I think we're already about 100 miles offtopic in this thread.

well sure, it isn't relevant at all..
but you should be talking to yourself when you say it's offtopic, as you brought it up in several replies so far.
I just added your claims about Tau Bassline onto the pile of dubious claims from other hard- and software clonevendors.. Again, no offense meant at all.


But yes.. I'm curious to Robin's view on things.

[Muon Software Ltd]

His KNOWHOW is of great use though.

...and I've been trying to persuade him to document what he is doing to help the project. I don't know at point anyone could assume that was some kind of attack.

The fact that you make a commercial 303 clone, and have the knowhow makes me wonder what you are doing in this topic, no offense meant.

I thought I'd made that quite clear. There are several aspects to this that interest me.

1. Solving the problem of how to best analyse an analogue synth's inputs and outputs and then deriving a methodology and a set of tools that might be applicable in the general case.
2. This is a conceptually hard problem, and crowdsourcing might be a good way to solve it.
3. I'm interested in contributing to such an project if, and only if, it has the characteristics of #1 and #2. Without those characteristics I'm not interested.
4. Whether or not open source projects are in general a good way of identifying and cultivating talented programmers.
5. Obviously I'm interested in the 303 - its my favourite synth of all time, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered attempting to emulate it.

If you'd read my posts I would have thought my motivations, having been stated so many times, would be completely crystal clear.

"source" is just not related to "sourcecode".

I'm sorry but the "source" bit of "open source" is indeed sourcecode. If the *design* on the other hand is open, that's not necessarily source code but it is best properly documented so that others can help.
At the moment, we have neither.

but you should be talking to yourself when you say it's offtopic, as you brought it up in several replies so far.

Only because other people felt the need to bring it up. I didn't mention it until someone else did. I'm not even interested in what people think of Tau2 as I have made perfectly obvious.