Linux...anybody using it?

[codec_spurt]

Been thinking of resizing my Windows partition and putting a Linux partition on there so I can do everything other than music on the Linux partition. Don't have anything non-music related on the Windows partition and don't want anything on there.

I was thinking Ubuntu to keep things simple, but does anyone have any thoughts on a good distro for general use? Haven't used Linux much in recent years so just wondering what was good/bad/indifferent in various flavors.

Mint is probably your best bet - http://www.linuxmint.com/

Have a look at the different versions and any compatibility problems they might have with your hardware. This goes for all distros of course. Some people say that KDE is the closest to windows, others that LXDE is. I'm sure that you will be able to figure it out robojam, you're a bright cookie .

Why not at least try the KDE version? http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2271
It's very stable these days and loads of eye candy. Takes a little more RAM than the other desktops, but if you have at least 4GB you're good to go.

Also, if you do get a problem, you have much more chance of getting an answer at the Mint forums than anywhere else really. And as it's the no.1 distro and they have been doing it for a while, things should just work out the box to start with. Plus the options for installing it to your hard drive might be easier with this distro than another.

Why don't you read this review http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linu ... h-end.html and take it from there?


cheers.

[jeffh]

@codec_spurt: No worries, I am very thick skinned

Re: crashes. It sounds like your PC is barfing on some of my modest OpenGL requirements, are you running Nvidia graphics by chance? I may have to include the Nvidia binary driver by default, Nouveau is pretty much a turd(which is Nvidia's fault).

1. Deleting regions: Did you try clicking on it and pressing "delete" on your keyboard?
2. Editing a multi-bar item: Select multiple using the mouse/keyboard and shift or ctrl, then right-click "Edit selected items as group". 99% of the time in other hosts when you split a bigger item, you're doing it in 1 bar increments, so think of it as a bag of pre-split bagels...
3. Deleting notes: You can ctrl+click-n-drag marquee select multiple and press the delete button on your keyboard, or you can hold down the shift key and click on the note.
4. Saving project incrementally: The project is saved incrementally any time you do anything, and can be reverted back to any state it was ever at since you created it via Edit->UndoHistory. The "save project" only saves the instrument state, which is not saved incrementally because that's not really feasible.. But yes, there is forensics-grade project history of every single action you take, so there's no need for incrementally backing up manually....
5. "Sound keeps playing"... That's a by-product of the GUI crashing but not the engine, which I'm pretty sure is a by-product of the Nvidia graphics I assume you have... I think ideally I need to figure out how not to let the Nouveau driver run even if Nvidia graphics are detected, because the OpenGL crashes themselves will have already ruined anybody's day anyways...
6. Things are linked before they are unlinked: I think once you get used to it, it will make a lot more sense... I'm trying to avoid the way that some DAWs make a clusterf_ck out of it by allowing totally separate items to be linked later, I think it's far more logical to start them from the same item and diverge later rather than attempting to link all edits of 2 unlike items together.... Also, some of that workflow is my attempt to force people to name new items when creating, as most of my Cubase and Reaper projects always wound up with 99% of the items having the generic default names because naming it would be a totally different step if you even remember to do it...

But there is always learning curve between switching DAWs, I think it's probably pretty normal to stumble a little the first day on some of the workflow differences, that was definitely the case when I switched from Cubase to Reaper...

Some parts of the workflow I think are good, but may take some getting used to... Others are admittedly still a work in progress just because PyDAW is still very young software, but those little workflow issues are what is mostly being worked on right now, then when the next major release of PyDAW is out, I expect that any/all of the workflow issues will be pretty much ironed out...

[robogone]

Mint is probably your best bet - http://www.linuxmint.com/

Have a look at the different versions and any compatibility problems they might have with your hardware. This goes for all distros of course. Some people say that KDE is the closest to windows, others that LXDE is. I'm sure that you will be able to figure it out robojam, you're a bright cookie .

Why not at least try the KDE version? http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2271
It's very stable these days and loads of eye candy. Takes a little more RAM than the other desktops, but if you have at least 4GB you're good to go.

Also, if you do get a problem, you have much more chance of getting an answer at the Mint forums than anywhere else really. And as it's the no.1 distro and they have been doing it for a while, things should just work out the box to start with. Plus the options for installing it to your hard drive might be easier with this distro than another.

Thanks

I've been so out of touch with Linux I guess I didn't even know how popular it is. I've used Unix of some sort or another since way back and have had Red Hat and Ubuntu installed on machines at home.

Not really so interested in doing a lot of tinkering under the hood anymore as I don't have the personal time like I used to, so I'm really looking for something that's good out of the box and this seems to fit the bill.

Will check it out some more.

[codec_spurt]

@codec_spurt: No worries, I am very thick skinned

Re: crashes. It sounds like your PC is barfing on some of my modest OpenGL requirements, are you running Nvidia graphics by chance? I may have to include the Nvidia binary driver by default, Nouveau is pretty much a turd(which is Nvidia's fault).

Pretty thick skinned myself as well. And a bit thick-headed to boot. I wouldn't be able to code a DAW as you have if my life depended on it.
As for the graphics, it is ATI HD 5*** series. Don't normally get these problems, but you could be right all the same. Sounds like that kind of thing.

1. Deleting regions: Did you try clicking on it and pressing "delete" on your keyboard?

Er, no, that didn't occur to me, as hemispherically challenged as I am, it didn't.


Well, now I know, makes sense. Same as the midi notes.

2. Editing a multi-bar item: Select multiple using the mouse/keyboard and shift or ctrl, then right-click "Edit selected items as group". 99% of the time in other hosts when you split a bigger item, you're doing it in 1 bar increments, so think of it as a bag of pre-split bagels...

Gotcha!

3. Deleting notes: You can ctrl+click-n-drag marquee select multiple and press the delete button on your keyboard, or you can hold down the shift key and click on the note.

I figured out the first way, the second is good to know too. Btw, if you were going to write a little primer, or say someone else was going to write a little primer for this software, then that should be at the top of the list of things to explain, because, some people might think that pressing the 'clear' button would have that same effect when notes are selected, but as mentioned it deletes the whole lot. Might save some confusion.

4. Saving project incrementally: The project is saved incrementally any time you do anything, and can be reverted back to any state it was ever at since you created it via Edit->UndoHistory. The "save project" only saves the instrument state, which is not saved incrementally because that's not really feasible.. But yes, there is forensics-grade project history of every single action you take, so there's no need for incrementally backing up manually....

Ah, I saw that there was a rather long and involved history, which would explain that. I also saw something about 'use with caution', but it is good to understand the concept nonetheless.

5. "Sound keeps playing"... That's a by-product of the GUI crashing but not the engine, which I'm pretty sure is a by-product of the Nvidia graphics I assume you have... I think ideally I need to figure out how not to let the Nouveau driver run even if Nvidia graphics are detected, because the OpenGL crashes themselves will have already ruined anybody's day anyways...

Yes, that makes sense. I have an ATI Mobility Radeon HD5470, FYI.

6. Things are linked before they are unlinked: I think once you get used to it, it will make a lot more sense... I'm trying to avoid the way that some DAWs make a clusterf_ck out of it by allowing totally separate items to be linked later, I think it's far more logical to start them from the same item and diverge later rather than attempting to link all edits of 2 unlike items together.... Also, some of that workflow is my attempt to force people to name new items when creating, as most of my Cubase and Reaper projects always wound up with 99% of the items having the generic default names because naming it would be a totally different step if you even remember to do it...

That's a design decision. I can respect that. It's your baby. Different strokes etc. I don't feel so sore about it now I've figured it out anyway.

But there is always learning curve between switching DAWs, I think it's probably pretty normal to stumble a little the first day on some of the workflow differences, that was definitely the case when I switched from Cubase to Reaper...

Some parts of the workflow I think are good, but may take some getting used to... Others are admittedly still a work in progress just because PyDAW is still very young software, but those little workflow issues are what is mostly being worked on right now, then when the next major release of PyDAW is out, I expect that any/all of the workflow issues will be pretty much ironed out...

I hear ya. I just saw how much stuff was in there and was impatient and wanted to play about with it. I just got a b in my bonnet about the 2 bar loop.
There is so much that is in place and waiting to be taken advantage of, I can see that. In fact after I wrote that post, I went back and quickly knocked up three new tracks with an audio imported and looped for good measure. I know the synths are basic, but I found them very usable and a pleasant surprise.

I just thought I'd let it all out with my initial reaction. Like I expect others will when they get around to playing with it.

You did say you were thick-skinned didn't you?



Who'd be a dev eh?

Well I've got it on a usb stick now and it worked pretty trouble free (workflow issues philosophy aside), and it only crashed the once apart from the disappearing window thing. And it was a very slow usb stick at that. So all in all, not such a terrible experience, which should be encouraging for you.


cheers.

[codec_spurt]

Thanks

I've been so out of touch with Linux I guess I didn't even know how popular it is. I've used Unix of some sort or another since way back and have had Red Hat and Ubuntu installed on machines at home.

Not really so interested in doing a lot of tinkering under the hood anymore as I don't have the personal time like I used to, so I'm really looking for something that's good out of the box and this seems to fit the bill.

Will check it out some more.

Well, Mint is pretty much Ubuntu unless you get the LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) which I wouldn't recommend until you get a bit more familiar. It uses different repositories to Ubuntu and it will just confuse things. Besides, the normal Mint flavours are easier to set up and fix. Especially as you are familiar with Ubuntu, so you'll be right at home in no time.

If you want the eye candy of probably the most gorgeous desktop in the world, and you have the horsepower, go KDE. If you want the lightest and most simple, go for the XFCE. If you want to experience the STANDARD Mint flavour, go for the Cinnamon which is a fork of the Gnome2 shell, so you won't have any of that Gnome3 silliness and not be able to multitask etc..

Mate (pronounced like latte [coffee]) is a similar concept and you can choose between these two, picking which ever may be more stable for your system, but they are both pretty much of a muchness, taking off where Gnome2 left off. They are both very beautiful desktops. They are both installed at the same time and you can set which one you want at boot or change it later. They are part of the same package.

http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_nadia_whatsnew.php#mate

So, that is a choice of one of three desktops.


If you get the DVD iso, you will have java/flash/audio/video working out of the box. All you will need to do is install any proprietary drivers such as for your graphics card, and probably your wireless too. But you may find that installed if you are lucky. It will automatically detect your hardware anyway and then tell you if you wish to install the drivers it has automatically sourced for you.


Lots of nice touches like that in Mint. And if you do run into problems, you won't find a better community to help you than the Linux Mint forums. Meaning, that your problem has already been noted and answered somewhere, but you can ask if not. You might even get a reply.


Also bear in mind if you want a distro that will run until 2017 (LTS - Long Term Support) then you want to be looking at Maya instead of Nadia. That is LM13 not LM14. LM14 will probably run for about a year (you can check on the website) before it is updated again. Having said that, I have such a beautiful install of Katya LM11, that I still use it quite regularly.

See here for Code names and how long the different flavours run for:
http://www.linuxmint.com/oldreleases.php

It even tells you what version of Ubuntu they are based on.




cheers.

[jeffh]

it is ATI HD 5*** series.

Uh oh... That would absolutely be the recommended GPU series if someone were to ask me... My developer/studio desktop has an HD5450 in it, and I've never had a single OpenGL-related problem out of that...

Don't normally get these problems, but you could be right all the same. Sounds like that kind of thing.

Do you normally run the Catalyst driver when using Linux on that PC?

I figured out the first way, the second is good to know too. Btw, if you were going to write a little primer, or say someone else was going to write a little primer for this software, then that should be at the top of the list of things to explain, because, some people might think that pressing the 'clear' button would have that same effect when notes are selected, but as mentioned it deletes the whole lot. Might save some confusion.

You're right, totally agree... The reason there is no primer is because one month ago today, there was no piano roll editor, there was only that "list editors" tab

I'll aim to improve the documentation before concluding the 2.0 development cycle, and of course, user-created documentation is always welcome...

Ah, I saw that there was a rather long and involved history, which would explain that. I also saw something about 'use with caution', but it is good to understand the concept nonetheless.

Yeah, I chose to use Git(popular software development version control software) for the undo history, but I found a few undesirable behaviours of it that can cause problems, which is why I urge caution... I plan on writing my own just-like-Git version control system for the next major release so that I don't have to urge caution, and can implement a proper CTRL+Z undo...

Yes, that makes sense. I have an ATI Mobility Radeon HD5470, FYI.

Man, I thought for sure that Nvidia cards were the only ones still capable of such behaviour, maybe Linux really isn't ready for prime-time yet

OTOH, I could just get rid of the flashy GUI stuff and not have these problems, but most users care more about the flash GUI stuff than the actual sound...

That's a design decision. I can respect that. It's your baby. Different strokes etc. I don't feel so sore about it now I've figured it out anyway.

Also, in case you missed it, that "add item" dialog has a "count" spinbox at the bottom, if you set it to like '5' for example, it will create 5 of the item name you selected with -1, -2, -3, etc... suffixes after them... Which is the PyDAW equivalent of drawing a multi-bar item in other DAWs with the pencil tool...

I just got a b in my bonnet about the 2 bar loop.

I hear ya... I understand that nobody in the history of DAWs has probably ever done it that way before, but as I've been using it, I really like it... But if at some point in the future I decide that it's suboptimal, then it will go away, but a lot of what I'm doing is attempting to address things that I personally found sub-optimal in other DAWs, so even if it changes, it's still unlikely to be an exact replica of how it's been done traditionally.

There is so much that is in place and waiting to be taken advantage of, I can see that. In fact after I wrote that post, I went back and quickly knocked up three new tracks with an audio imported and looped for good measure. I know the synths are basic, but I found them very usable and a pleasant surprise.

Thanks.

Coding soft-synths has been a specialty of mine for a decade or so... I had to take a hiatus from the current crop I'm working on so that I could write a viable Linux host to run them in because I found the existing hosts to be problematic. No sense in spending a year making the most epic plugs ever if I don't have anything to run them in

But once PyDAW hits maturity, you can expect some over-the-top synths, samplers and effects... Next level sh_t...

I just thought I'd let it all out with my initial reaction. Like I expect others will when they get around to playing with it.

You did say you were thick-skinned didn't you?

I appreciate the feedback, I don't ever snap at people unless they're just blatantly trolling(which does happen some time)

And it was a very slow usb stick at that.

The USB stick speed usually doesn't affect much EXCEPT that slow file IO (like loading audio tracks) can actually cause the Python interpreter to SEGFAULT and crash... I wish like hell that wasn't the case, because otherwise I could recommend the USB method to anybody and everybody, instead of offering it but suggesting that you really should install to hard disk... I think installing it to hard disk is definitely smoother as less prone to strange problems, but I think the USB flash drive method at least hits the threshold of "good enough", and gives people a chance to try it quickly without committing to re-arranging their PC's partitions...

[codec_spurt]

it is ATI HD 5*** series.

Uh oh... That would absolutely be the recommended GPU series if someone were to ask me... My developer/studio desktop has an HD5450 in it, and I've never had a single OpenGL-related problem out of that...

Don't normally get these problems, but you could be right all the same. Sounds like that kind of thing.

Do you normally run the Catalyst driver when using Linux on that PC?

Oh yes. It just runs far too hot without them, plus other stability stuff that is hard to pinpoint, graphics based of course, which is why your explanation sounded plausible. Installing the ATI drivers is the first thing I do after every install of a new Linux system. They are never included, except for some reason they came with a version of PCLinuxOS that I once installed. As I said previously, when I run sensors or GKrellM, it tells me that I am running 10-15 degrees Celsius cooler after putting them on.

I like to run Wings3D modeler as well which is OpenGL based, so that is another reason to use them. I find that the older Linux Kernels run hotter with this card, the new ones not so much. Maybe it's just me I don't know. But it always brings the temperature down which can only be a good thing. I still don't know if it is the CPU overheating or the graphics chip. Even with sensors etc. there is limited feedback built into this particular laptop. HP c***. But it's worryingly hot without them, fry an egg hot.

It's not too difficult to install the CCC (Catalyst Control Center), so I'll do that and report back if the issue is still occurring. I have a feeling it won't, but let's see.

[codec_spurt]

And it was a very slow usb stick at that.

The USB stick speed usually doesn't affect much EXCEPT that slow file IO (like loading audio tracks) can actually cause the Python interpreter to SEGFAULT and crash... I wish like hell that wasn't the case, because otherwise I could recommend the USB method to anybody and everybody, instead of offering it but suggesting that you really should install to hard disk... I think installing it to hard disk is definitely smoother as less prone to strange problems, but I think the USB flash drive method at least hits the threshold of "good enough", and gives people a chance to try it quickly without committing to re-arranging their PC's partitions...

I get where you're coming from. All my really blazing fast USB sticks have installs on them, and I notice a massive difference in performance between them and the slower ones. I mean, Maya, even though it's KDE that I'm running (though I suppose it is more RAM that she uses up than CPU cycles) is an absolute pleasure to use. But it is a pig on a slow stick.

That's why I like distros like PCLinuxOS because you can change its "swappiness" as they call it, which makes it write to RAM instead of a disk swap file. Puppy also writes to RAM, and as mentioned FatDog64 (Puppy derivative) and one of my favourite distros - Knoppix, which is meant to be run off a USB stick and not installed to disk. And let us not forget the wonderful and under-rated PartedMagic which boots to RAM as well. That's it off the top of my head.

I saved my project file with the audio it was calling on my laptop HD so it wasn't actually on the stick itself. As obviously when things are written to RAM which is volatile you need a consistent place for your data created whilst in whatever Linux OS you happen to be booted into. This is crude and probably not ideal, but it works for me, until I get around to creating all the separate partitions needed. Which is why...

I've just ordered a WD Scorpio Black 7200Rpm 750GB HD for this laptop, and while it has been fun messing about with USB installs, it's time to put a few extra partitions on my HD for specific chosen distros. I am going to have one for Linux Mint, no doubt about that. I will probably have one for a Debian Expert install (actually quite easy to do when you know how ) - see here for instructions to do a minimal expert install with KDE:



I've installed LXDE and XFCE over the top of that as well, and I'll just try them all out and see which is the most efficient on this hardware.

I'll probably also install my FatDog64 to the new HD as well. It only takes up a couple of hundred Megs and the Audio pet extension for it which has all the Audio stuff ever invented for Linux in one place, only takes up a couple of hundred Megs also. And that'll be that. Except of course for a 'TEST' partition for installing distros like yours. Though ideally I would like to get the audio sorted on my LTS of Maya and put PyDaw2 onto that when it's working.


Gonna need to know your way around GParted and Grub for achieving all that (probably more than I ken at the moment), but Linux will only take up about 50-60GB for that little lot out of the whole drive, and I'll have like five OSs to choose from at boot.

But first I need to get everything backed up and organised. Which is easier said than done!

[jeffh]

Ah yeah... AMD GPUs in laptops do run a bit hot without Catalyst... I can deal with the lesser performance of the open drivers, but my AMD laptop has Catalyst on it, it gets 8 hours of battery with Catalyst, and 3 hours with the open driver... But on a desktop the open driver is great if you don't need super hardcore OpenGL performance...

[glokraw]

But first I need to get everything backed up and organised. Which is easier said than done!

What I've done to make things easy, is backup C:
and then copy all data to a terabyte drive, uninstall unused windows apps,
use a live linux to remove the now protected data,
then defrag the drive, then resize it, then image it.
Then image again, after the linux sides are set up happily.

On the linux sides, I copy the whole .wine and /usr/share folders
to a few safe places, and because I stick to one time tested wine version,
after any new install, I just copy the .wine folder back, and pertinent
parts of /usr/share (Hydrogen kits, zynaddsubfx sounds etc

Prevents any Native Instrument/IK installer drama, and tracking down
stray plugin zips, magazine dvds etc

If your final setup mounts all partitions at boot, you may be able
to link a large Steinberg/VstPlugins folder to the other linuxi,
to save time and space. Put extra backups of irrepacables,
in someone elses home, in case fate strikes a hard blow at yours
Cheers

[glokraw]

Been thinking of resizing my Windows partition and putting a Linux partition on there so I can do everything other than music on the Linux partition. Don't have anything non-music related on the Windows partition and don't want anything on there.

I was thinking Ubuntu to keep things simple, but does anyone have any thoughts on a good distro for general use? Haven't used Linux much in recent years so just wondering what was good/bad/indifferent in various flavors.

pclinuxos on the rpm side, bodhi (lightweight ubuntu spinoff using E17,
on the debian side. Both use synaptic package gui, and apt-get, to install
apps.

http://www.pclinuxos.com/?page_id=180
choose small, or large versions, several iso's with different Desktops
to choose from, I use E17, with some kde apps installed.

Bodhi Linux:

http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... eased.html

User customized E17 desktops: http://forums.bodhilinux.com/index.php? ... -the-week/

pclinuxos magazines, monthly PDFs: http://pclosmag.com/index.html

These are great to browse, as interests expand, or issues appear.
Cheers

[glokraw]

A hacky demo made with r13.03-5 :

http://linux-sound.org/audio/fizz-pluck-bang.mp3

And you thought you knew your cheese.

Best,

dp

The demo has great elements, timing, and counterpoint,
that would make people smile. Hope you bring on an album version.
I can imagine a few steel-drums riffs fitting in among the sounds.
Cheers

[glokraw]

I don't know about that glokraw... Since KDE4 was first released many years ago, KDE has been a big joke, but 10 minor releases later, it's actually somewhat stable.

Those early KDE4 releases were also competing against the most stable desktop ever, Gnome2. Now that Gnome3 has made Gnome so completely irrelevant and crashy that even RedHat is considering dumping them from RHEL, KDE is actually the stable/good one, and I NEVER thought I would say that

Let's hope there is never a KDE5

There is still an improving KDE3

http://www.trinitydesktop.org/screenshots.php

You get control of the panel, instead of some KDE bloke/blokette

kde4.9x is still pesky enough to overwrite prefs, make icons vanish,
and erode trust in file management. I always double-check deeply nested folders,
when moved across drives or partitions, as the destination is sometimes empty.
Almost got burned, but backups are spinal fluid of peace!
Cheers

[StudioDave]

@codec: I'm glad someone else gave PyDAW a serious spin, though it seems we've had quite different experiences. I know Jeff squared away some of your plaints, but I think you hit on a few remaining problem areas he'll no doubt get around to improving asap. The file management is kind of weird, as is the Undo. I got used to it quickly enough, though I agree that it could be simpler.

Personally I've found PyDAW's workflow to be extremely fast wrt MIDI operations. I've recorded via an eternal MIDI controller, I've manually created sequences, and I've done extensive edits in the piano-roll and CC pages. These actions are designed very well, to the point that all I want now is about two dozen MIDI transforms at my disposal. No fear, Jeff can code them during lunch, I'm sure.

Audio operations, well, that's another matter. Improvements are coming, but audio doesn't seem to be the program's primary focus at this time.

There's lots to improve in PyDAW but its bases are well-covered. I hope you'll continue to test it and make suggestions. I know that some of Jeff's design considerations are unique but he seems to have good reasons for making them. I haven't found any real blockage re: workflow, hopefully more familiarity will help you get further into it too.

@jeffh: Man, I worked for TWO SOLID HOURS on my piece of cheese, and I get no response ?! Holy Fong, not even an unangry glare ?! Dave is saddened.

Btw, I listened to your fromage on SoundCloud. Nice, but mine's cheesier.

Keep up the good work. Cancel vacations, get up earlier, skip breakfast, and stop watching TV. Oh, and keep away from children. Further advice found on the side of a box of baking soda: "Change every 30 days !". Sounds like a plan.

Best,

dp

[StudioDave]

http://linux-sound.org/audio/fizz-pluck-bang.mp3

... Hope you bring on an album version.

Umm, that *was* the album version...

I can imagine a few steel-drums riffs fitting in among the sounds.

Might be nice. I love the sound of steel drums, so ethereal. The local high school here has a fantastic steel drum group called Pantasia, they make their own instruments and have quite the ensemble.

Btw, many of the sounds on that demo were originally created with the PSIndustrializer synth. I used those sounds via Euphoria, along with some Ray-V/Way-V patches and some drum loops from Betamonkey. It didn't take long to whip together, Jeff's program is getting slicker with every release.

Also btw, I read your excellent review of the new Mustangs. Just might have to trade in my old Mustang One for a new ride.

Best,

dp