Cakewalk Sonar X3

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Jace-BeOS]

Well, one can check the CW forums...seems a good barometer I'd think. Seen a few SUEs there...

That forum is really something... something beyond something...

Take a look at the reply that poor guy gets:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-Tape-Emula ... 00350.aspx

Holy hell. Those first three replies are just utter jackasses.

[whyterabbyt]

Nice to have these answers. But, yeah, too late, Cakewalk. If you had done it right the first time, i wouldn't have all these rants in me from suffering the product's various freaky behaviors.

So even if its actually been about 7 years since they changed the thing you just said had never been changed, that's not good enough because they didnt do it from the start.

As for flugel45 and Ryan99, this is all relevant discussion; Cakewalk has been selling this product in its various states of broken functionality for many years and this has shaped a long history worth examining.

Even when you keep claiming 'broken functionality' that isnt actually broken, thats not actually the way you say it is?

They ought to expect old users to share their experiences with new (and potential) users, when discussion starts of new versions that Cakewalk hopes to make money on.

It would be nice if all of those experiences had more basis in fact, though.

For anyone who is considering getting on the Cakewalk train, here are some former users telling them what the history has thus far been.

Except its less 'history' than 'mythology' in some cases, and some of those proponents of that are doing their damnedest to make sure noone dares not to toe that party line.

The other thing of course, is that some of those 'former users' are former users of everything, but regularly find the time to spend money on something they say they hate, by a company they say they want to see fail, so that they can decide it doesnt work, repeat the same old nonsense, and somehow justify themselves as interested users providing impartial commentary before changing their mind and jumping onto the next big thing to complain about. But while there's kicking to a prone body to be done, they'll be happily kicking.

[pwal]

proper notation

thanks for the infos, spot my lack of music theory

[Jace-BeOS]

I agree with you. I followed this thread for a while and I'm really tired to read the same complaints over and over about previous versions of Sonar. Nothing personal against those people, but please move on, you made your point abundantly clear.

The problem with that is that some people are invested in making those complaints, whether they make sense not. Witness the repeated posts by the guy ignoring the big additions of VST3 and ARA, to complain 15 times about there being bundled plugins, because the very existence of them is an affront. Even Noel's lengthy post responding to the 'wrapper' nonsense is not the first time he's explained this; its been made clear several times by CW people that that's not how Sonar has worked in a long time, and some people have been pointing to those explanations in Sonar threads just as long, including to people who are in this thread now saying that it still uses a wrapper. Witness the people that dont understand how software abstraction works, but who 'know' that a 'wrapper is 'bad'. You cant tell them they're getting it wrong, that everything works that way, that that's how software works in the first place; they're not interested in listening. They're invested in complaining, and that's all they do.

i don't know if you were referring to me or not, but i'll make note of this: not everyone has seen every post ever made. If these topics have been covered before, and Cakewalk has dispelled these myths before, i wasn't around for it. The VST wrapper myth is hereby cleared for me, at least. i'm sure there are still users out there that haven't had the benefit of this information. And then there's the point some of us have been trying to make: it doesn't work well enough (for us, but we did pay too). The reasons why are less important than the fact that we've done our part. We're upset, we've mostly moved on. But we still care. i know... we shouldn't.

[whyterabbyt]

Well, one can check the CW forums...seems a good barometer I'd think. Seen a few SUEs there...

That forum is really something... something beyond something...

Take a look at the reply that poor guy gets:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-Tape-Emula ... 00350.aspx

Holy hell. Those first three replies are just utter jackasses.

True. Although Ive seen as wankish as that here.

[whyterabbyt]

i don't know if you were referring to me or not, but i'll make note of this: not everyone has seen every post ever made. If these topics have been covered before, and Cakewalk has dispelled these myths before, i wasn't around for it.

A question, then, would be why you would be so insistent insist on repeating a myth without finding out the facts properly..

The VST wrapper myth is hereby cleared for me, at least. i'm sure there are still users out there that haven't had the benefit of this information.

users who automatically latch on to folk like yourself propogating the myth?

And just for the record, you were 'present' at this thread 6 years ago in which that myth was pointed out to be a myth...

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2788651

[J4R1O]

Well, one can check the CW forums...seems a good barometer I'd think. Seen a few SUEs there...

That forum is really something... something beyond something...

Take a look at the reply that poor guy gets:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-Tape-Emula ... 00350.aspx

Holy hell. Those first three replies are just utter jackasses.

There's that weird feeling all over that forum... can't describe it. Someone mentioned "assimiliation", and I think that's a pretty good describtion.

[Daan22]

Well, one can check the CW forums...seems a good barometer I'd think. Seen a few SUEs there...

That forum is really something... something beyond something...

Take a look at the reply that poor guy gets:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-Tape-Emula ... 00350.aspx

Holy hell. Those first three replies are just utter jackasses.

There's that weird feeling all over that forum... can't describe it. Someone mentioned "assimiliation", and I think that's a pretty good describtion.

Hmm. Two negative comments found, out of thousands on a generally very helpful and friendly forum.
The negative conclusions obviously tell more about some individuals (haters) on KVR than about the whole Cakewalk forum, which is generally a helpful and friendly place.

For example, an utterly ugly thread like this one would be absolutely impossible to find there.

[chk071]

The negative conclusions obviously tell more about some individuals (haters) on KVR than about the whole Cakewalk forum, which is generally a helpful and friendly place.

Yep, quite a lot of hate here... from complaining about 10 year old issues, moaning about marketing, to digging out examples of posts from the CW forums you can find on the KVR forums as well, if you just dig deep enough. Quite funny how much stuff people can stir up, when they dislike something.

[zentatonic]

Well, one can check the CW forums...seems a good barometer I'd think. Seen a few SUEs there...

That forum is really something... something beyond something...

Take a look at the reply that poor guy gets:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-Tape-Emula ... 00350.aspx

Holy hell. Those first three replies are just utter jackasses.

There's that weird feeling all over that forum... can't describe it. Someone mentioned "assimiliation", and I think that's a pretty good describtion.

Hmm. Two negative comments found, out of thousands on a generally very helpful and friendly forum.
The negative conclusions obviously tell more about some individuals (haters) on KVR than about the whole Cakewalk forum, which is generally a helpful and friendly place.

For example, an utterly ugly thread like this one would be absolutely impossible to find there.

This. Overall the forum over there is very positive right now. And X3, so far for me, has been an awesome release. Knock on wood.

[Jace-BeOS]

i don't know if you were referring to me or not, but i'll make note of this: not everyone has seen every post ever made. If these topics have been covered before, and Cakewalk has dispelled these myths before, i wasn't around for it.

A question, then, would be why you would be so insistent insist on repeating a myth without finding out the facts properly..

Hmm. i was ranting about Sonar's VST support lacking a feeling of integration. i don't know that i presented the myth, as someone else brought up the FXpansion wrapper... though, yes i DID support it.

My personal experience with Sonar left me with a powerful impression, which supported the myth. i knew FXpansion's DX/VST wrapper was originally present (i own those versions of Sonar and watched it evolve). As far as i could tell, it still was there. If you look at the VST scanner that Sonar runs at version 8.5, it seems to still be a third party product (i can't recall the name... some kind of virtual network port??), regardless of what Sonar itself is using internally.

i remember when Cakewalk announced VST was fully integrated. i bought the upgrade and was annoyed: "this is integration??" What i perceived was that they embedded the external VST scanner app into Sonar so it didn't have to be run separately. Oh wow. If their own process of wrapping VSTs to their native interface is what i'm seeing, that itself is what i should be complaining about (or, i AM complaining about, without knowing it), because it still sucks/sucked. Call me ignorant of what was done under the hood, but the results were generally the same. User experience is what matters here. Myth or not, the results SUCK (or did, up to 8.5 where i finally quit).

When i need to test a lot of VST plugins on Windows, i do that in Tracktion 2, because Sonar is too damned slow and clumsy to test a plug and then remove it if i don't want it. Whatever Sonar is doing, it's over-engineered. That's another reason Sonar feels like Windows itself. Simple things are too complicated. Cakewalk has admitted to some of their mistakes by changing how the GUIDs are formed (though the results are still not human readable, and i argue that makes them stupid, which the entire Windows Registry is: stupid- because eventually you have to manually edit something when software fails to do so as expected... another rant there...), but i didn't benefit from Cakewalk's change of heart on how to do VST enumeration, because they drove me away a full two full versions prior to them finally changing their methods. That's on them for having devised a junky system in the first place, FXpansion wrapper or not.

The VST wrapper myth is hereby cleared for me, at least. i'm sure there are still users out there that haven't had the benefit of this information.

users who automatically latch on to folk like yourself propogating the myth?

Fair enough. But i still support the IMPRESSION of how Sonar does things. That impression is: CRAPPY.

And just for the record, you were 'present' at this thread 6 years ago in which that myth was pointed out to be a myth...
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2788651

Hm. i have absolutely zero memory of that. There's actually a reason, too: i was on huge doses of clonazepam at the time, and one of its major effects is to block memory formation. There are lots of things that keep being brought to my attention from those years that i have no memory of. i can read my posts and have a general sense that it was me writing them... but not actually have the memory of the experience... it's a creepy "watching yourself from outside yourself" kind of thing... This includes lacking any information i should have acquired at that time. Sorry, but the drugs weren't my choice. It seems that i'm still one of those people who didn't have the myth busted, even though i was there when it was busted. Freaky and annoying. You have no idea how much that bothers me. No doubt, the drugs i was on also deepened my emotional bond to Sonar (gone sour, clearly). Trauma sucks.

[icontakt]

Noel if you will humour me to post my bug list from X2 of the major stuff, and tell me if its been fixed in X3, now THAT would be amazing. Will you do that for me? I've a back injury and don't want to crawl upstairs to get it if it won't get a reply. Just being straight with you. Thanks.

Well, if you post it in the Sonar forum he or users will do it for you. They are doing it for me now.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Has-X3a-fixed ... 00340.aspx

[whyterabbyt]

If you look at the VST scanner that Sonar runs at version 8.5, it seems to still be a third party product (i can't recall the name... some kind of virtual network port??), regardless of what Sonar itself is using internally.

That'll be the BitBridge; its a version of FXTeleport. Its there to take care of 'top layer' 32bit/64bit bridging, rather than the underlying VST hosting, just like in any other host using a bridge.

i remember when Cakewalk announced VST was fully integrated. i bought the upgrade and was annoyed: "this is integration??" What i perceived was that they embedded the external VST scanner app into Sonar so it didn't have to be run separately. Oh wow. If their own process of wrapping VSTs to their native interface is what i'm seeing, that itself is what i should be complaining about (or, i AM complaining about, without knowing it), because it still sucks/sucked. Call me ignorant of what was done under the hood, but the results were generally the same. User experience is what matters here. Myth or not, the results SUCK (or did, up to 8.5 where i finally quit).

The VST scanner isnt part of the host's useage of VSTs, though. It preps for it, but its not involved in it. My own perception is that Sonar did 'the right thing' by making the scanning/collation process independent of the host.
The perception that the scanner was the wrapper was part of the myth, but only because CW were naive enough to not make it look completely different for the sake of combatting a myth. If they'd changed the look if it, that might have changed.
But the thing about the scanner is that it decoupled the problems that plugin scanning has, and continues to throw up for hosts, while providing an easy way to do something that very few hosts even try to do now; customisation of plugin behaviour, from where they appear in menus to whether you can disable their response to tempo, or reconfigure effects to appear as instruments.
I cant see a compelling reason for them to have stepped backwards on that. There are still hosts that still just crash on startup because of some plugins, with minimal feedback as to which one it is. That's the suboptimal way of doing it.

When i need to test a lot of VST plugins on Windows, i do that in Tracktion 2, because Sonar is too damned slow and clumsy to test a plug and then remove it if i don't want it.

I used to always use Chainer, but now I use Bidule to test stuff these days. Its not Sonar that Im avoiding issues with, though, its Live. Tracktion 4 is one of the ones that still needs work on its plugin scanning, as far as Im concerned, though. The last update behaved seriously strange scanning iLok'd plugins, for example.

Freaky and annoying.

Yikes, sounds it.

[icontakt]

I've never seen a "Pro" using it.

You're too young, son.
No, the joke aside, I think it's a bit of an insult to non-professional users. Also, you've never heard anyone say, "I have to use Pro Tools at work but I prefer Sonar so I use it at home"?
I have.