Do we really need more than 100 velocity layers?

[telebunke]

Well, lets look at the survey. 34% say that they want 127 or even more. So, product with 127 are neede and wanted out there. The rest of the story is personal preference. It's really cool somehow. Next thing will be 127 velocity layers for each major instrument and articulation in an orchestra library. It's gonna be 5,700 GB, though.

tele

[SKoT_FX]

(fumes at the back stabbery) - So in addition to Mully giving me a sex change in his BFD deluxe review, Angus has now declared me to be a posing artiste. THATS IT, I'M FEELING A LITTLE PRECIOUS NOW, I'M GOING HOME TO MOTHER'S.

[telebunke]

I didn't think such a subject could elicit such passionate responses I think that with anything it totally depends on what you're doing and how you want to achieve it. You may not want or need it.
... if you don't need it then there's nothing wrong with that.

If I had known this, I would have made the subject title a little less a sensation.


... and if you need or want it, then it's here, ready to play and give you even more realism than BFD 1st edition sounds

tele

P.S.:
I got a message from Obiwan
And remember, Only the dark side of the force knows nothing but extremes.

[AudioWhore]

When I make dnb I dont need any velocity layers. Just f**king nice drum samples

[dasdeck]

damn, we have nothing but weaklings at this board. only 11% so far for 127+ layers. what wrong with you? Nature has infinite layers. I really would like to play a "real"(sounding) drumset within my flat withoutn loosing
(it) shelter(i hope shelter is the right word here, i'm german i wanted to say "Dach über'm kopf"

of course layers dont make it all. i want to have seamless modulation of hit zones and artificial aging process, warming up the felts etc.

Full realism schould be A target(besides usability of course).

ther are 127 votes by the way. one more and we're out of MIDI Controllable range

D3CK

[telebunke]

ther are 127 votes by the way. one more and we're out of MIDI Controllable range

D3CK

I wasn't aware that I could create a thread that would go beyond the MIDI specification.
Seems like the force is with me.

tele

[rickschwar]

Very interesting thread.

- I strongly agree with the comment that physical modelling is not the holy grail. When I first got my V-drums five or six years ago, I thought they sounded awesome, but over time my ears started to detect more and more flaws with Rolands samples, synthesis and COSM technology. I now have a very hard time listening to Roland's ride cymbals, toms, snares and many of their crash cymbals. And while their new TD-20 module is certainly better in some areas, I still hear many of the same artifacts.

- Regarding the comment of module latencies. Every module and MIDI trigger does have latencies and the 4ms present in most Roland modules can be detected by some drummers.

- Rick

[james0tucson]

Full realism schould be A target(besides usability of course).

At what point does the cost overtake a great drumkit, mics and preamps, and remodelling the room?

[waiting man]

My current kit, due to space, is a Yamaha DTX, although the V Drums are next on my list. These, IMHO, are the best sounding electronic kits available. Being physically modelled & using the patented REMO mesh heads, these pretty much tick every box.

I really don't think that v-drums are physical modelling based, should be the usual s+s with a twist.
anyway I agree with rickschwar, they sound nice at the beginning, I still play few custom patches sometimes.
but it's mostly a crappy overpriced soundmodule. (I talk about my expanded td-10, td-20 might be a tad better)

sample libraries like RDK, GSCW & Ns Kit are raising new life in my homedrumming. I simply plug my hearphones and I don't have to adapt my style to the samples used, such is the control and the subtleties. which is a thing I usually hate from sample-based stuff.
I don't know if this actually helps music, surely helps inspiration. my kind of dynamic inspiration.
(includes also frustration in mounting kits, tuning them, mics, mixers, cables, neighbours wanting my head chopped, ect.)

there are worries on the expense (size) that this fun might bring...but it's still lots of fun.

I know I can't talk as a traditional music programmer/scorer, since my needs are a bit different.
I have to hit many times a robocop-styled plastic midi toy and simply don't get bored by the reaction.

[Angus_FX]

james0tucson,

Drum kits aren't so expensive (nor, relatively speaking, are top session drummers or engineers), but for the price of the Eldorado or Electrical rooms, and the mics they used, you could buy a Cray supercomputer.

In fact, along those lines, I'm told Hans Zimmer has a custom-built supercomputer (sizeable PC cluster, multi-terabyte RAID storage, custom-developed sampler software) for orchestral work.

I really don't think that v-drums are physical modelling based, should be the usual s+s with a twist.

They do claim to have "COSM" modelling, but I'm not too sure what that is.. Corporate-Oriented Synthetic Marketing?

but it's mostly a crappy overpriced soundmodule. (I talk about my expanded td-10, td-20 might be a tad better)

The module may not be all that, but the pads and hi hat controller are pretty good on the 20.

Cheers,
Angus.

[waiting man]

They do claim to have "COSM" modelling, but I'm not too sure what that is.. Corporate-Oriented Synthetic Marketing?

Conspiring-On-Sad-Musicians?
according to them cosm it's God, it's everywhere.

yeah, the new pads are cute. planning to buy a new snare, but they don't come cheap. also Hartmann's ones are cool, if you want same defects of real drums (size)

[Failed Muso]

I really don't think that v-drums are physical modelling based, should be the usual s+s with a twist.

V Drums are physically modelled using Rolands COSM technology (Composite Object Sound Modeling).

[Angus_FX]

The problem with "modelling" as a term is that it's almost as flexible as, for example, "terrorist"

A marketing guy could present a reasonable argument that ALL digital synths that use subtractive digital filters are "analog-modelled", and ALL drum synths right back to the 808 are "physically modelled". In a sense, they're right. (an 808 could be seen as "a model of physical drums, implemented with analog circuitry"). Sure, an 808 snare doesn't sound much like a real one, but nor does a naive "simple K&S" digital string model sound much like a Gibson Les Paul.

As a technically aware musician, what you might *hope* a company to mean by a "physically modelled snare" is something where they model, for example:-

-- the interaction between stick tip and top skin (including stick materials -- tip and body, strike position and velocity)
-- the behaviour of the top skin itself
-- the interaction (2-way) between top skin and inner air body
-- the interaction (2-way) between top skin and shell
-- the interaction (2-way) between inner air body and bottom skin
-- the interaction (2-way) between shell and bottom skin
-- the interaction (2-way) between bottom skin and snare wire
-- interactions between shell, hoops, lugs etc.
-- the sum of interactions of all of the above with the air
-- perhaps the effect of microphones and the room as well.. though this is arguably beyond the scope of the drum model alone.

I don't know of anything on the market which has come *anywhere near* this. Seeing as there don't seem to be any academic papers or US patents on COSM as a whole -- although I'm sure aspects of it are indeed patented -- it's hard to say exactly how far Roland have got; however, most such approaches use a combination of standard envelope and filter techniques with a dash of convolution voodoo. Probably the nearest would be the Korg Wavedrum, which used essentially a true physical front-end (a skin and the player's hand to generate an impulse) with some kind of digital resonant body model.

That's not to say that modelling techniques can't make some cool and very musically usable noises.. just don't expect pure algorithmic modelling to come up with a convincing Supraphonic snare any time soon.

Cheers,
Angus.

[waiting man]

I really don't think that v-drums are physical modelling based, should be the usual s+s with a twist.

V Drums are physically modelled using Rolands COSM technology (Composite Object Sound Modeling).

sure, as transferring files through the internet is a sort of teleporting. Cosm may mean modeling in Roland/Boss ampsims, but in v-drums modelling has an omeopathic percentage. maybe it's used statically, just to compose sounds, I doubt there are things like interacting resonators, network of delays or whatever makes modelling interesting.

[Failed Muso]

I really don't think that v-drums are physical modelling based, should be the usual s+s with a twist.

V Drums are physically modelled using Rolands COSM technology (Composite Object Sound Modeling).

sure, as transferring files through the internet is a sort of teleporting. Cosm may mean modeling in Roland/Boss ampsims, but in v-drums modelling has an omeopathic percentage. maybe it's used statically, just to compose sounds, I doubt there are things like interacting resonators, network of delays or whatever makes modelling interesting.

Is that an assumption or statement of fact ?

Is "omeopathic" actually a word ??
What is an omeopathic percentage ?

Interacting Resonators ?
Network of delays ?

Is it me or just a poor Babelfish translation ?

At the end of the day, who really cares about what goes on in the box, so long as the resultant sounds are what we are looking for as a useable musical tool for our personal compositions.