ableton live5 compared to fls6xxl?

[original flipper]

HI

I feel pretty OK about bashing host programs ... but then I have owned pretty much every one at some stage or another!

In fact I live in the hope (that might be an overstatement actually!) that both Live and Tracktion will one day come closer to my way of working; in fact I re-purchased Live a week ago in lieu of V6 dual-core support!

Of course we are so spoilt for choice and for all the 'these are different beast's' type comments I actually believe that the fundemental way's of composing and getting audio and/or midi down in pretty much all host's is so close a similarity that we often argue the toss over semantics.

Given any of a few dozen host programs out there, any one of us would eventually be quite happy with any one of them ... so to speak.

I think we all come up againsts bug's/crashes/issues of some description; this is the point at which we 'turn' on a program, if remedial action is not taken; this is where programs like XT, Podium et al really shine; quite simply the dev goes to work there and then ... hours (if your lucky) later a FIX!!!

If when I (and several others) started moaning about 'our' indifference to certain aspects of a popular host's midi implementation, the dev immediately made a few 'minor adjustments' to smooth things out then I would be doing back flips, of course this is not always possible outside of a major up-date but nevertheless if people don't feel that they are being listerned to then you will within communities like this notice trends that indicate disgruntled users.

KVR is not the be all and end all, I don't doubt that 'we' only make up a small proportion of the user base for many popular program,s and I also do not underestimate the amout of feedback from customers directly to developers that we will never see here; that thought brings things into perspective, doesn't it?

Oh ... what was the topic of discussion!



Sidetrack city!

Flipper.

[Toxikator]

Host wars! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Live turns it into sculpting clay

Primarily: Live's stretching algo is just a granular stretch. FL's elastique IS better sounding, it just takes longer. If you want the grainy, stuttery, all-over-the-place effects, you just right-click->Add to Granulizer channel in FL. Instant noise.

But the whole point is that, until you've used Melodyne, you have NO IDEA what it means to sculpt with audio. A granulizer stretch? that's no sculpture, mate. ;)

[headquest]

In Overall Latency under settings i get 26.4 ms + 26.4 + 1.00ms + 53.8
Is 53.8 the number you say I have to lower? Is there a reason why Protools has no latency with the Digi 002 and Ableton does?

Okay, if you had your ASIO settings correct (as per the walkthrough I gave on page 4) you would get radically lower latency than this. You need to go back and configure the hardware (in its own setup software) and then reopen Live, select ASIO from the dropdown list, and that should solve it. With your hardware over USB I should have thought you could get the combined latency figure to 10ms or below.

Actually, Headquest, if you could try something out for me to test my theory that would be great.
Does setting negative track delays on audio and midi output channels with PDC on have any affect on incoming rewired audio?

Hey Tony, could you PM me some instructions for how best to test this in order to be of help? A quick step-by-step including the hardware settings you use for comparisson, etc, would be a great help. Cheers!

i just dont like to see supporting one app turn into bashing another one ... ... as ever all i wanted was a balance of opinions

I think we're on the same page Rob . That's exactly why I felt ModuLR's attempt at likening Ableton's stability/support to Sony Acid needed to be balanced out. It was a pretty offensive and quite off-the-wall suggestion given Acid's current low reputation. As already stated, I have used the last four versions of Ableton Live without a single crash... I doubt many could say that about the last four versions of Acid. And ModuLR is somebody whose opinions I had previously really respected. It's really not like him to be deliberately misleading (which I'm sure he was) or be a troll about other people's software choices. Strange. I guess perhaps people just change

Anyway, balance addressed! Peace.

But the whole point is that, until you've used Melodyne, you have NO IDEA what it means to sculpt with audio.

Melodyne seems a bit odd to me (the core programme - I guess I need to spend longer with the demo) but you are right about the awesome timestretch approach - truly revolutionary too. If they get around to an affordable plugin version of the pitch correction/timestretch it will surely be massive.

[diverdee]

I haven't yet had a problem with reason rewired into Live & PDC, but then I haven't done anything very intensive whilst utilisng plugins that introduce any significant amount of latency.
I may have a go at this myself - although i'm pretty sure that the Abes have already confirmed there is a problem here.

[headquest]

Yes, my main reason for wanting some instructions is that I've not actually experienced the problem myself . Obviously I want to help by replicating it and testing out whatever you would like, Tony.

And I thought that the Abes had it down on the list to solve in 5.2 as well. But it's good that you've clarified it in more depth and they are now definitely on the case .

That's one of the big reasons I love Ableton Live - it's by no means a perfect host, but it is a rapdily improving one with great committed support! Basically it's still their baby

[Synthbuilder]

Headquest, just PM'd you.

Tony

[headquest]

Cheers Tony - I'll look into it.

[ModuLR]

I think we're on the same page Rob . That's exactly why I felt ModuLR's attempt at likening Ableton's stability/support to Sony Acid needed to be balanced out. It was a pretty offensive and quite off-the-wall suggestion given Acid's current low reputation. As already stated, I have used the last four versions of Ableton Live without a single crash... I doubt many could say that about the last four versions of Acid. And ModuLR is somebody whose opinions I had previously really respected. It's really not like him to be deliberately misleading (which I'm sure he was) or be a troll about other people's software choices. Strange. I guess perhaps people just change

Anyway, balance addressed! Peace.

ok.

I simply said "some" would argue the same for Live5. I was implying that there are some who are in fact having issues with Live5. I was implying that for many the general feeling for Live5 does not hold up to the "glory" of the previous versions. I don't understand why you are in such denial about this? as you can read it right there on the ableton forum. On top of that, I made it very clear that I was being a little sarcastic by adding the words "touche" and a ":hihi:"

now you flat out call me a troll? and say I'm misleading people? uhhh... ok.

On top of that you just kinda pulled the hater card on Acid5. Have you even tried Acid5 to any great extent? You didn't even know it support groove quantizing of midi and audio.. and that feature is pretty up front. I haven't found the Acid5 demo unstable on my machine, and I had beat the shit out of it (back when I had time). So are you speaking from experience? or are you just repeating what you hear?

[Lunch Money]

I pesonally know you better now than to think that Greg but your name was mentioned in a couple of the PMs I received...

Then I have little faith in the PMs. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I never insulted or mocked anyone for switchig programs. So anybody who could have mentioned me would have only done so because they know I'm a vociferous "fan," not because I was ever insulting or aggressive towards anyone. <shrug>

Perception is a funny thing, particularly when it's not based in fact.

I maintain that your own statements about T are misleading, just as you claim those that Mod's are about Live, so there's a bit of irony there. Mod hasn't changed. He's the same and still a very helpful and supportive person, so it's also misleading to paint him with the brush of disappointment. You might not have seen eye to eye in this thread, but you're both among the supertop helpful people around.

Greg

[ModuLR]

irony at it's best Lunch.

[diverdee]

I have to agree that there have been problems with Live from version 5 on, though the abes seem to be doing a good job dealing with them so far - 5.2 looks like it's dealing with one that bothered me a little - not a bug per se but a change of function many didn't like.
& Modulr is a top guy, senderella was a god send

[ModuLR]

awwww thanks... btw, I have no personal vendetta against Live as implied. I shelled out the $$$ for Live5 too... used it to perform a set on my friend's radio show, and it worked very well. It has it's purpose in my music arsenal. I just find it odd that Headquest can selectively ignore problems expressed right there on the Ableton forum.. yet when the shoe is on the other foot and it comes to T2... he plays the role of victim... and yet at the same time, can turn around and pretty much slam Acid5 as a bug ridden mess... yet I'm not even remotely convinced that he's even given it an in depth try.

[pHz]

my work here is done ...

slainte rob

[headquest]

I just find it odd that Headquest can selectively ignore problems expressed right there on the Ableton forum.. yet when the shoe is on the other foot and it comes to T2... he plays the role of victim...

I can see why that would concern you. But to fill you in on the background to that:

About this time last year (and for a few months prior to that) I was at an all time low with music software. I had invested in Live (version 2... then upgraded to 4 in Autumn 2004) and Tracktion (including recommending it widely in schools, etc). But BOTH of them were giving me some pretty serious problems. In Live's case, the CPU hit was through the roof, and I complained loadly on their site about it! In Tracktions case... well, you know about that .

Basically relief came in early 2005. Two things happened - in Tracktion land T2 was a massive disappointment to me (and many others, it seemed). It not only failed to solve my previous issues, but added a whole load more (especially the GUI slowdown, which was the ultimate showstopper here). People on the forum were often rude and it became impossible for me to post there at all.

By contrast, Ableton responded very positively to the complaints from many users about CPU issues. One of their developers contacted me and talked about system specific stuff, as well as beavering away at their end to resolve matters for users who were having problems. Within a few weeks they released a patch which totally solved the problems I was having.

In terms of people complaining about Live 5.0.3... if you've been around the Abes forum for a while you will know that this is just business as usual. Some users there do get very hot under the collar. Mostly in good spirit. When Live 3 came out there was an outcry that it was a lame update. Then with Live 4 it was CPU hit and shoddy MIDI that got people angry. Not long after that there was hell to pay for the cost of Operator, which had users up in arms. But don't take it too seriously mate - I've seen the same folk there throughout, and things always move on constructively, because the developers respond positively and continually work to develop the programme further.

I hope that explains the difference (from my perspective). I do think there is a VERY big difference in attitude/approach between the two.

and yet at the same time, can turn around and pretty much slam Acid5 as a bug ridden mess... yet I'm not even remotely convinced that he's even given it an in depth try.

Actually you are wrong there. I was into Acid prior to Live 2 / Tracktion / etc. I did demo version 5 seriously, but still found the paradigm of only being able to use a single loop on each track very limiting. Also in version 5 many of my VSTs didn't show up, the MIDI was very lacking compared to others, automation non existant, etc. I guess my problems with it were not so much bugs as poor feature implementation. It will be interesting to see version 6 (which I shall also demo, following my long time Acid interest) but as they add more features the simple interfface seems to get increasingly crowded. The opposite of Tracktion/Live approach of having complex features but an easy interface. Time will tell!

Of course in the meantime I have opted for Sonar 5 Producer Edition as my major linear host, which is streets ahead of Acid now on so many levels.

[headquest]

You might not have seen eye to eye in this thread, but you're both among the supertop helpful people around.

Greg

Thanks Greg, that's reassuring, but I think you are being too generous to me!

ModuLR has certainly helped loads of people, and on many occasions in the past I have heaped praise on him! He has provided some mega useful utilities for Tracktion (and others) and the respect people give him has been well earned.

For my part I don't think I generally do much to help, although I do try to answer people's questions about Adobe Audition and Ableton Live if I am confident I can help. I hope that in a small way I do help people occasionally, but I'm definitely not in ModuLRs league!

Hence my surprise at him taking that sideways swipe for which he offered no substance at all (and still hasn't). I guess that he has now explained that it was because he doesn't understand my position (or perhaps respect me personally, maybe because of some prior offense on my part?)

Oh and thanks for the PM - points duly noted, mate!
Cheers, Greg.