Would you use this _real_ Leslie? AUDIO DEMO

[guitarzan]

OK, here's the way I planned to test Quinto's concept:Four outputs from my Edirol FA-66 into my four Minimus 7's. What's missing from the picture is the compact 4-channel surround amp that Radio Shack doesn't carry anymore! I'll try to find something on eBay ASAP.

I had to at least test the concept somehow - so I bought a couple pairs of Radio Shack's cheapest available amplified speakers just to satisfy my curriosity:
The speakers are crap, but it IS getting wobble - and doing it by motion alone as far as I can tell. See how the speaker array is 4-channel, and that they are facing outward from the center? It's surround sound in reverse! Doesn't the sound source physically varry in distance to the listner's ear as the signal is panned 360 degrees?

The only reason I'm really posting is to make sure that you guys see the way the speakers are set up.Is that the way you were all envisioning the speaker array? Does it change any of your oppinions about the concept itself?

You genuine Leslie experts and owners should be the ones checking this out. If you already have 4 outs on your audio interface (surround) and a set of surround speakers it wouldn't cost you anything to try.

Quinto's vst controll has high rotation and low rotaion speed control, and you set the crossover freq. Remember, this thing is really more about proof of concept right now - but with the right impulses and the other refinements I think it might work great!

Well, Ive got mini amplifiers to shop for - I'm going to at least take it to that level and I need a small amp for the laptop anyway. I hope other's check it out too! I really want this to work, in case you haven't noticed.

Quinto: I though I would post on the other thread to seek specific advice on optimizing results. But it's Saturday night for me right now!

[quintosardo]

Hi guitarzan,
what a grrrrrrrrrrreat post!!!

That is exactly what I meant. Your "surround inside-out" definition is the best one.

Now the next step should be enclosing that speakers arrangement inside a box. Something that could add reflections and get the "chorus" effect by those.

Now I'll go on with two solutions:

- "Stage" solution. A prototype box, a hardware rotary system which includes such a speakers arrangement and amplification, together with some other bits
- "Virtual" solution. A pure vst which emulates a rotary speaker in a room (together with IRs), and can accept "static" sources, too, for other sources. So you can emulate rotary speakers together with classic reverb in the same room. This one should be the first one, I guess?? A kind of surround-to-stereo solution...

[AdmiralQuality]

Will it still work if your speakers don't glow purple?

[guitarzan]

Now the next step should be enclosing that speakers arrangement inside a box. Something that could add reflections and get the "chorus" effect by those.

Quinto, would there be any virtual solutions other than putting the speakers in a common enclosure? If you didn't need all the speakers inside one box your concept could have any speaker array spinning (and more) - even stadium size sound reinforcement systems! I think hear Pink Floyd calling...

"Virtual" solution. A pure vst which emulates a rotary speaker in a room (together with IRs), and can accept "static" sources, too, for other sources. So you can emulate rotary speakers together with classic reverb in the same room. This one should be the first one, I guess?? A kind of surround-to-stereo solution...

The first thought that struck me while I was setting up in my host (energyXT) was "couldn't I just run this through four impulses and mix back into stereo?". I think that would make a very versatile Leslie emulator.

Will it still work if your speakers don't glow purple?;)

The glow did actually help me get the sequence right (the color "pulses" with input). Plus it was kind of groovy.....the colors, man...

[quintosardo]

The box outside is needed toget the "chorus" effect. To be tested...


The IRs solution is different from this one.

I think that we need to distinguish between stage and recording. The first one needs array of speakers.
The second one (emulation) doesn't need it. It emulates in stereo...

[AdmiralQuality]

The glow did actually help me get the sequence right (the color "pulses" with input). Plus it was kind of groovy.....the colors, man...

Hahaha. Awesome.

[guitarzan]

The box outside is needed toget the "chorus" effect. To be tested...

I posted a question in the Leslie thread at the SKNote forum about the box. I think I'm following you about the box but I need some clarification

The IRs solution is different from this one.

I was just hoping there might be some other way to get the chorusing other than a physical box - maybe using delay like pj geerlings suggested, or IRs, or just through phase control - but I think I see where you're going with the box.

I think that we need to distinguish between stage and recording. The first one needs array of speakers.
The second one (emulation) doesn't need it. It emulates in stereo...

Yeah, sorry, I probably started to muddle up the concept for some. I don't see why you couldn't use speaker impulses on the stage version Real Leslie too, though - just to be able to get the tone of the speakers the way you wanted - I did (Boogex) for the home toy version.

[SteveDawgHaus]

Wow, fascinating thread. I could go on a few pages about this, but first I'll just throw out a few morsels for thought:
1- Roland VK-7 Leslie "modeling" sounds excellent through stereo speakers by itself, but when other instruments start playing with it it loses all credibility. Sound more like an intermittent Moog standing wave. Point?: Although the end listening product will be stereo (CD/mp3), to capture a Leslie you must move the sound around and capture (mic) it.

2- The 4 speaker setup should help ALOT, but can never be perfect... but it will definitely be better than anything out there. Also, you would really need 8 speakers, 4 for the horn array and 4 for the low rotor array, and make sure to crossover at 800hz with gentle slopes, preferably modeling the old analog components' curves. Remember the low rotor and horn turn in opposite directions, and have completely different acceleration ramps. That is a standard Leslie. I have used that (a 122), combined with a modified (2 speed motors) 22H, in which the rotors turn the same direction, and it is simply amazing!... but I digress...

3- Old school micing of a leslie, and still the MOST accurate way to capture a Leslie (or anything for that matter), requires 3 mics: L/R at 120 degrees (not 90 as is commonly used), and center. This configuration most accurately reproduces the way our ears hear [90 degrees is common because it requires one less diaphragm]. The stereo pair can be either in a cluster (as if it was your head), or distanced (8-12 feet optimal). They both sound different but both realistic.

My most practical concept ended up being to make a mini Leslie, about Auratone size but a little taller, and fully functioning horn and rotor. Give it maybe 20W, (15 low, 5 hi), and build in 3 or 4 mics and a stereo mixer. My standard stage micing uses a stereo pair at 120 degrees pointing to the center of the horn, and one on the low, however 2 on the low would be best.

Either that or use a super computer grid to physically model the real thing realistically.

Did I stimulate some minds? If you make one thats real, I'd buy it.

peace,

Steve[/u]

[quintosardo]

Wow, fascinating thread. I could go on a few pages about this, but first I'll just throw out a few morsels for thought:
1- Roland VK-7 Leslie "modeling" sounds excellent through stereo speakers by itself, but when other instruments start playing with it it loses all credibility. Sound more like an intermittent Moog standing wave. Point?: Although the end listening product will be stereo (CD/mp3), to capture a Leslie you must move the sound around and capture (mic) it.

Here is one important point: not emulate, but get the real thing through a different mechanism

2- The 4 speaker setup should help ALOT, but can never be perfect... but it will definitely be better than anything out there. Also, you would really need 8 speakers, 4 for the horn array and 4 for the low rotor array, and make sure to crossover at 800hz with gentle slopes, preferably modeling the old analog components' curves. Remember the low rotor and horn turn in opposite directions, and have completely different acceleration ramps. That is a standard Leslie. I have used that (a 122), combined with a modified (2 speed motors) 22H, in which the rotors turn the same direction, and it is simply amazing!... but I digress...

I think I've avoided the need for 8 speakers. Guitarzan tested the vst and he's seen that, we don't need 8 speakers to get two rotating speakers!
(yes, I forgot to make them rotate in opposite directions! I'll do it soon)
4 speakers mean two directions -> 4 verses, so it should be enough for evrything (I could do 1 million speakers rotating at different speeds, maybe I'll do!)

3- Old school micing of a leslie, and still the MOST accurate way to capture a Leslie (or anything for that matter), requires 3 mics: L/R at 120 degrees (not 90 as is commonly used), and center. This configuration most accurately reproduces the way our ears hear [90 degrees is common because it requires one less diaphragm]. The stereo pair can be either in a cluster (as if it was your head), or distanced (8-12 feet optimal). They both sound different but both realistic.

Thank you very much for this.
It will be very useful for two actions:
- record the results from the hardware one
- emulate in the software one

My most practical concept ended up being to make a mini Leslie, about Auratone size but a little taller, and fully functioning horn and rotor. Give it maybe 20W, (15 low, 5 hi), and build in 3 or 4 mics and a stereo mixer. My standard stage micing uses a stereo pair at 120 degrees pointing to the center of the horn, and one on the low, however 2 on the low would be best.

Did you build it? Did I understand well?

Either that or use a super computer grid to physically model the real thing realistically.

Supercomputer grid is exactly what I want to avoid

Did I stimulate some minds? If you make one thats real, I'd buy it.

Yes, you did it!

Let me know if you want to try the vst like in these snapshots

[quintosardo]

I posted a question in the Leslie thread at the SKNote forum about the box. I think I'm following you about the box but I need some clarification

Answered there

I was just hoping there might be some other way to get the chorusing other than a physical box - maybe using delay like pj geerlings suggested, or IRs, or just through phase control - but I think I see where you're going with the box.

The chorusing is the part I would like to get from hardware... I'll test it...

Yeah, sorry, I probably started to muddle up the concept for some. I don't see why you couldn't use speaker impulses on the stage version Real Leslie too, though - just to be able to get the tone of the speakers the way you wanted - I did (Boogex) for the home toy version.

There are three stages that I'm seeing in this:
- emulate the speaker (I'll do, for sure)
- emulate the cabinet (I'll do only in the software version)
- emulate the room (I'll do in the software version)

I'm sure that the inside-out configuration doesn't work for reverb and others, so I'll use it for rotation only (and in box reflections chorusing).
But a lot of testing is still needed, here

[quintosardo]

Finally I've uploaded a small image for loudspeakers placement on the website.

The vst effect can be downloaded, too.

Now the two rotary speakers should rotate in opposite directions.

[quintosardo]

Here is a 3d picture by guitarzan!


Now the placement for the louspeakers should be clear. Please verify that the sound rotates on a circle, otherwise put the speakers in the right order.

Even though there is only one speakers set, the system sends two separate rotating speakers.

Maybe we will experiment with more bands/rotating speakers (three or four rotary speakers in a single Leslie?)

[quintosardo]

Going on...

[quintosardo]

Tonight the test, will it explode? If not, audio demos soon...

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]