Hardware vs. Software aka why do VST sucks?
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- KVRAF
- 2070 posts since 5 Oct, 2005
I think the differences are:
Most hardware manufacturers have been working on the algorithms they use for a lot longer than the vst developers.
Some of the most popular vst's are emulations of hardware.Because they are never quite the same as the originals this adds to peoples perception that vst technology is second rate.The only way I can see around this is to start innovating and stop emulating or make the emulations better.I believe a Native Instruments representative was quoted as saying they were only interested in making their emulations good enough for the average user rather than making them spot on.Doesn't this mean that by design, some vst's are second rate compared to hardware? I don't say this to slag off N.I. as I'm sure other developers do the same.
Regarding old vs new calculators,I thought the biggest difference was speed rather than accuracy.For example,around the time when Rebirth appeared I was still using Amiga computers.A few 303 emulators cropped up that ran on the Amiga.The main difference between the Amiga stuff and Rebirth was that pc's were fast enough to do the calculations in real time.With the Amiga you had to make your settings and then wait for the computer to render a file.I remember real time plugins being a bit of a revolution in computing.It may not matter that you are using an old casio calcultor or a 3ghz pc when your doing sums for maths class but it makes a big difference for real time audio and visual programs.
Most hardware manufacturers have been working on the algorithms they use for a lot longer than the vst developers.
Some of the most popular vst's are emulations of hardware.Because they are never quite the same as the originals this adds to peoples perception that vst technology is second rate.The only way I can see around this is to start innovating and stop emulating or make the emulations better.I believe a Native Instruments representative was quoted as saying they were only interested in making their emulations good enough for the average user rather than making them spot on.Doesn't this mean that by design, some vst's are second rate compared to hardware? I don't say this to slag off N.I. as I'm sure other developers do the same.
Regarding old vs new calculators,I thought the biggest difference was speed rather than accuracy.For example,around the time when Rebirth appeared I was still using Amiga computers.A few 303 emulators cropped up that ran on the Amiga.The main difference between the Amiga stuff and Rebirth was that pc's were fast enough to do the calculations in real time.With the Amiga you had to make your settings and then wait for the computer to render a file.I remember real time plugins being a bit of a revolution in computing.It may not matter that you are using an old casio calcultor or a 3ghz pc when your doing sums for maths class but it makes a big difference for real time audio and visual programs.
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- KVRist
- 205 posts since 25 Feb, 2005 from Germany
The opposite is true. Say, the range of values to be represented is [-1,1[. Then with 32 bit floating point data, the distance between adjacent values is at worst 1/2^24, namely at the borders of the value range, whereas with fixed point data, the distance is everywhere the same and at worst 1/2^31. So when the signal is near maximum, floating point data loses 7 bits precision in comparison to fixed point data.Urs wrote:Hmmm, most hardware VAs run on fixed point dsp processors. This is *way* less resolution than ordinary single precision floating point
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- Banned
- 4073 posts since 15 Mar, 2004
Great quote Torbin and so true!Torben wrote: Seen from developers point of view there are only one kind of pure hardware and that is analog; everything else is software run on different processors...
Cheers,
Alex
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- KVRAF
- 4229 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Right here, in front of my computer...
Fixed point vs floating point info: http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2003/july/index2.html
Worth a read...
Worth a read...
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- Banned
- 4026 posts since 27 Jan, 2004
TRN76 wrote:hehehe @ snooky
Maybe you should start using photoshop instead, dont you feel embarrest when you say stupid things?
No, I dont know the answer to "why VST sucks", because its a myth. I have several VST/i here that are awesome. All I'm saying is that there are still a few hardware that no software still havent archived.
What? me feeling st00pid?
not really - I'm quite sure that even tho you have a Ti and I don't, my music sounds way better than yours kiddo.
so, go home and play wif ya Ti - I have records to make kid.
BTW, photoshop is nice, but there's a just as powerful free alternative called GIMP.
See where I'm comming from kiddo?
owning the most expensive gear won't make you "pro" mmmkay?
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35520 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
(1) The GIMP is nowhere near as powerful as Photoshop, especially for the requirements of professionals working with print.snooky wrote: BTW, photoshop is nice, but there's a just as powerful free alternative called GIMP.
See where I'm comming from kiddo?
owning the most expensive gear won't make you "pro" mmmkay?
(2) A massive majority of professionals in the graphics industry will be using Photoshop. In many places you wouldnt get a job if you didnt know how to use it. If more than 3 professional graphic artists use the GIMP, I'd be surprised.
(3) Your analagy was shite. Have a nice day.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRist
- 72 posts since 24 Sep, 2004 from Todbjerg, Denmark
Ok ok .. I get it. I have bought some plugins that turned up to be next to useless. Maybe I should have put it in other words.jon wrote:Kenneth I agree 99,9% with you.
..except for this part:
as you don't always get what you pay for, but luckily there are demos to download before handing out the money.Of course there are some very nice free ones, but basically you get what you pay for. Accept it.
Kenneth
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- KVRAF
- 5913 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany
I think that isnt true anymore that hardware listens better then VSTs. The Korg Oasis ist build on top of a modified Linux-OS and supports (AFAIK) VSTs. Does Korg Oasis sucks?
One point is surely true, that all components of external hardware fits together. There are optimized operatingsystems, special optimized drivers for one hardware (may be partly programmed in assembler) all works perfectly together. To become near that with a PC, you must select all components manually, fiddle with interrupts, buy soundcards with better converter and so on. The bottleneck are the operatingsystems and the pc-architecture as a whole, not the algorithm we found in VSTs.
I think on a hardware synth there is no preamptive multitasking or such things that can stop a thread if the operating-system thinks it must do that.
To come near to external hardware, the software (like VSTi) is not the problem. Many VSTs are very good, and many people cannot hear a difference to similar hardware But most people have problems with a PC. Often things doesnt work as expected. With external hardware such problems are very rarely. Power on, and all works May be that has also something todo with the many bugs in operatingsystems like Windows and that they are not developed for realtime multimedia.
One point is surely true, that all components of external hardware fits together. There are optimized operatingsystems, special optimized drivers for one hardware (may be partly programmed in assembler) all works perfectly together. To become near that with a PC, you must select all components manually, fiddle with interrupts, buy soundcards with better converter and so on. The bottleneck are the operatingsystems and the pc-architecture as a whole, not the algorithm we found in VSTs.
I think on a hardware synth there is no preamptive multitasking or such things that can stop a thread if the operating-system thinks it must do that.
To come near to external hardware, the software (like VSTi) is not the problem. Many VSTs are very good, and many people cannot hear a difference to similar hardware
But most people have problems with a PC. Often things doesnt work as expected. With external hardware such problems are very rarely. Power on, and all works May be that has also something todo with the many bugs in operatingsystems like Windows and that they are not developed for realtime multimedia.
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- Banned
- 4026 posts since 27 Jan, 2004
Ahh, this feels like the "I'd be surprised if more than 3 professional music producers where using PC's" ...you know it's complete bollox and thusly, not true.whyterabbyt wrote:(1) The GIMP is nowhere near as powerful as Photoshop, especially for the requirements of professionals working with print.snooky wrote: BTW, photoshop is nice, but there's a just as powerful free alternative called GIMP.
See where I'm comming from kiddo?
owning the most expensive gear won't make you "pro" mmmkay?
(2) A massive majority of professionals in the graphics industry will be using Photoshop. In many places you wouldnt get a job if you didnt know how to use it. If more than 3 professional graphic artists use the GIMP, I'd be surprised.
(3) Your analagy was shite. Have a nice day.
GIMP is just as powerful as photoshop!
Elitism - it's the kvr way (apparently)
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35520 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Ah, because Y 'feels like' X to you then Y must be false. What utter bullshit.snooky wrote: Ahh, this feels like the "I'd be surprised if more than 3 professional music producers where using PC's" you know it's complete bollox and thusly, not true.
Nope. Saying it repeatedly doesnt make it true.GIMP is just as powerful as photoshop!
Ah, right; if you're talking shite, and someone points that out, its elitism. Yeah right.Elitism - it's the kvr way (apparently)
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35520 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Presumably, only those darned 'elitists' need CMYK.Warmonger wrote: I'll keep that in mind next time I've got to work with CMYK.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRist
- 83 posts since 11 Apr, 2004
could it bethe "it's not the wand - it's the wizard" thing again? Hardware is made by companys like korg roland moog etc, who, probably, have 30+ years of knowledge and experience designing synths and DSP effects. VST plugs are often made by young and fresh companys... n00bs compared to above mentioned.