KVR Audio

soma · Post by **soma** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:59 am

I have to say that I do prefer using the built in devices that are included in Live more than VST's just because 1) they fit in the GUI and take up less space withthe same # of options as other plugins 2) They put a lot of thought into interface control and parameters are easier to read on clips and the arranger.

BUT I'd have to say, for $150 you can buy Reaktor Session and do everything that Operator and Sampler can do and then a whole lot more!

Vonbrucken · Post by **Vonbrucken** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:07 am

damned i must wait to save some money to upgrade but 200 $ promotion for live lite users is so cool
it was a good choice to buy my emu 49

ericj23 · Post by **ericj23** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:35 am

any of you lucky beta testers confirm if you can automate more than the first 128 parameters on a vst ?

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:38 pm

ericj23 wrote:any of you lucky beta testers confirm if you can automate more than the first 128 parameters on a vst ?

Seems not.

meister eder wrote:I hope they did not take out the feature of having a Clip Envelope for Sample Start in Simpler!

Can anyone from the alpha/beta list confirm that the feature is still there?

Seems to be there still, yes.

spuddle · Post by **spuddle** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:49 pm

Enough about the Sampler already darn it!

How is the video support tell me? It seems a little limited if it only supports .mov but I can live with that so long as the implementation is solid.

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:35 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
Operator and Sampler aren't the cheapest options on the market.
But their integration with Live kicks major ass.

Actually, except for the sample drag & drop in Sampler, their integration with Live *cripples* them compared to VSTs because you can record midi ccs into session clips but currently, frustratingly, *not* Live automation. They also have to be squeezed into the tiny channel strip instead of a large free floating window. Still worse, they don't work in any other hosts you might use, unlike VSTs. Ironically, the Live integration is currently more of a downside than an upside.

Charging more than $100 for Operator or Sampler in their current state is pure hubris. I think I'll be spending a lot more time in Logic in the next year than I'd expected I would.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:25 pm

kuniklo wrote: Actually, except for the sample drag & drop in Sampler, their integration with Live *cripples* them compared to VSTs because you can record midi ccs into session clips but currently, frustratingly, *not* Live automation.

Interesting point.

They also have to be squeezed into the tiny channel strip instead of a large free floating window.

There's pros and cons to that. I like the simplicity of Operator's interface - as somebody not very experienced with synth programming (especially FM!) I found Operator an encouraging learning environment. That does not necessarily apply to Sampler though - the success of that approach with Operator does not in itself suggest that a whole range of such instruments is desirable.

Still worse, they don't work in any other hosts you might use, unlike VSTs.

As has been pointed out a few times, Sampler not only needs Live, it needs racks in order to use it to the full. But because Ableton have improved Rewire functionality in Live 6 it is now possible to send MIDI straight to Sampler/Operator from any Rewire host such as Logic or Sonar... so your argument about VSTs no longer really applies.

I think I'll be spending a lot more time in Logic in the next year than I'd expected I would.

That doesn't really follow. The charge for Sampler may have altered your opinion of Ableton as a company, but Live is not only just as good as ever - it's WAY better at version 6. If you like Live, stick with it (just ignore Sampler).

Personally having spent time with the beta version today I think the $200 charge for Sampler (in its current unfinished state) is an error of judgement on Ableton's part, which I hope loyal users and the press will quickly forgive. But Live 6 itself is superb

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:44 pm

[DELETED]

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:15 pm

headquest wrote: There's pros and cons to that. I like the simplicity of Operator's interface - as somebody not very experienced with synth programming (especially FM!) I found Operator an encouraging learning environment. That does not necessarily apply to Sampler though - the success of that approach with Operator does not in itself suggest that a whole range of such instruments is desirable.

It's all cons. Operator could still be a simple synth, it would just all fit on one page, like a 4-op fm synth should, instead of being fractured into a bunch of small pages.

As has been pointed out a few times, Sampler not only needs Live, it needs racks in order to use it to the full. But because Ableton have improved Rewire functionality in Live 6 it is now possible to send MIDI straight to Sampler/Operator from any Rewire host such as Logic or Sonar... so your argument about VSTs no longer really applies.

The fact that I can access Sampler via rewire is in no way equivalent to the convenience and versatility of a VST I can load natively into another host. If I'm going to put up with the pain of rewire I'll just use Reason.

I think I'll be spending a lot more time in Logic in the next year than I'd expected I would.
That doesn't really follow. The charge for Sampler may have altered your opinion of Ableton as a company, but Live is not only just as good as ever - it's WAY better at version 6. If you like Live, stick with it (just ignore Sampler).

Not because of Sampler, because they didn't really address any of the things that make it tough to deal with complex arrangements and whole-track editing, which is where I currently am focusing my energies. Live remains a great sketchpad for ideas and jamming and also remains a lousy host for finishing complex projects. I've found ways to replicate most of the spontaneous creation process I like in Live and once I've got the basic idea down it's just so much easier to finish it in Logic.

soma · Post by **soma** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:31 pm

Wow, kuniklo you are really upset huh?
For me it's easy enough to just say, "Thanks for all the new features but no thanks for Sampler. Keep up the good work, Ableton; hopefully the next instrument will be more innovative."

kuniklo · Post by **kuniklo** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:39 pm

soma wrote:Wow, kuniklo you are really upset huh?
For me it's easy enough to just say, "Thanks for all the new features but no thanks for Sampler. Keep up the good work, Ableton; hopefully the next instrument will be more innovative."

More disappointed than upset. I was hoping that Live 6 would be the version that would make me forget any other hosts. Instead they went in a completely different direction. I do find the marketing of Sampler a bit disingenuous and their pricing seems completely out of touch but I'm not upset. Like I said, just about all of the new features in Live itself are cool and worth the $100 or so upgrade. Racks in particular could have some very creative applications.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:49 pm

headquest wrote: You may well be right that there will be no future upgrade costs associated specifically with the Sampler instrument, but at this stage should they be charging $200 for a product that is quite clearly UNFINISHED even by their own admission?

Robert Henke has stated it is unfinished, and now we know, and everyone can make a decision based upon that. Do I want to purchase this today, knowing it is unfinished? I can buy it in 6 months when it is more fleshed out, or I can buy it today and have the use of it as is and not have to pay a price later. The lack of future upgrade pricing is a big selling point actually.

I really don't understand the frustration expressed about it. Nobody even knew there was a Sampler coming, so it cannot possibly be disappointment. If it does not suit you, don't get it. I don't think I'll be getting it and so what? It does not affect Live if I don't.

In the meanwhile, Live 6 is greatly improved! Live 6 is so worth the price. The racks are astounding. Projects that pushed the CPU too high, are now bit more than half of what they were. This is huge. Add in all the other changes: video import, new improved meters, new pre/post FX routing options, a rockin deep freeze where you can flatten the audio right in place, tempo master clips, new and improved effects devices, significant browser improvements and many more smaller improvements.

After working with the Live6 beta for a couple days, it is already hard to use Live5.

ericj23 · Post by **ericj23** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:53 pm

ttoz wrote:
headquest wrote:
ericj23 wrote:any of you lucky beta testers confirm if you can automate more than the first 128 parameters on a vst ?
Seems not.

oh ffs - why why why why why why

coldmachine · Post by **coldmachine** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:11 pm

Spuddle,
major timing and sync issues with video.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:24 pm

kuniklo wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
Operator and Sampler aren't the cheapest options on the market.
But their integration with Live kicks major ass.
Actually, except for the sample drag & drop in Sampler, their integration with Live *cripples* them compared to VSTs because you can record midi ccs into session clips but currently, frustratingly, *not* Live automation. They also have to be squeezed into the tiny channel strip instead of a large free floating window. Still worse, they don't work in any other hosts you might use, unlike VSTs. Ironically, the Live integration is currently more of a downside than an upside.

The lack of recording midi cc's into session is a bad limitation and I generally agree about other hosts. I prefer vst's because if some time I decide to switch hosts I still have all the vst's and presets and experience to take with me.

What Ableton has done is integrate the vst much better into Live6. You can now make and save racks with any 3rd party instruments and effects. You can save them as presets and you can map multiple parameters from any of the instruments/effects to the 8 macro controls in the rack. If you have a supported controller, those 8 macro controls will automap to knobs/sliders on the controller for amazing realtime performance control. People are paying $500 to get this functionality in KORE and it is now right there in Live6. I'd happily pay the upgrade price for just this feature alone.

I do video and I haven't even tried importing one yet cause I have spent the time with the beta building racks and smiling.

Live6 Beta1 is in the wild...to registered 5 users only!