Mix saturation (Charles Dye style) using PSP MixSaturator

[Kingston]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

[bool]

I was sitting in a studio some 15yr ago eyeballing the techician who was preparing stuff for a radio commercial, tweaking subtle autopanner in a drawmer effector. I believe there was also an aphex in the chain. It's unbelievable to what extents went certain types of folks to get one-and-a-half percent more "on dial" impact, highly masked, almost un-noticeable woodoo magic tweaks...

Makes you rethink the concept of free enterprise ...

How it relates to the 2-bus itb theory?
The more you hit your ears with masked "errors" (f.e. non-predictable variations under some cognitive treshold level), the more you "own" the listener. The more you provide for some "euphonic" stereofield shattering, shimmering (whatever), the more brain-game you play (literally, in some way). Only pwm hardware compressors can really "lock in" both channels (close to digital in some way). Subtlety is the key to ownage.

[bduffy]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

Kingston, are you saying there's nothing to what kingofbeers was saying about tiny variations in the two sides of a stereo bus that are mimicked or captured by plugins? Is that just not so? I'm just trying to figure out what you're so worked up about. Is it all hooey?

[oblagon]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

Kingston, are you saying there's nothing to what kingofbeers was saying about tiny variations in the two sides of a stereo bus that are mimicked or captured by plugins? Is that just not so? I'm just trying to figure out what you're so worked up about. Is it all hooey?

if you compress L/R on a whole mix the variations aren't so tiny. You can clearly hear the difference (wider stereo) with headphones on. Processing the whole mix would be the best way to test this approach.

[Kingston]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

Kingston, are you saying there's nothing to what kingofbeers was saying about tiny variations in the two sides of a stereo bus that are mimicked or captured by plugins? Is that just not so? I'm just trying to figure out what you're so worked up about. Is it all hooey?

Not completely, but certainly not worth the trouble of double the CPU on any particular plug to get this effect. Falls very near the border of placebo effect, the good warm feeling that your mix is being improved, when in fact one *could* do something of substance instead.

One should note that with properly designed equipment this effect is *extremely* minor, ie, negligible, and I would go as far as saying that anyone saying otherwise is not understanding the concept.

*sigh* just seems like (and is) more placebo foolery along the lines of summing voodoo, and this always ticks me off the wrong way.

[bduffy]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

Kingston, are you saying there's nothing to what kingofbeers was saying about tiny variations in the two sides of a stereo bus that are mimicked or captured by plugins? Is that just not so? I'm just trying to figure out what you're so worked up about. Is it all hooey?

Not completely, but certainly not worth the trouble of double the CPU on any particular plug to get this effect. Falls very near the border of placebo effect, the good warm feeling that your mix is being improved, when in fact one *could* do something of substance instead.

One should note that with properly designed equipment this effect is *extremely* minor, ie, negligible, and I would go as far as saying that anyone saying otherwise is not understanding the concept.

*sigh* just seems like (and is) more placebo foolery along the lines of summing voodoo, and this always ticks me off the wrong way.

Right. So do you think things like Colortone and Waves SSL Bus Compressor are hokum?

[Kingston]

Right. So do you think things like Colortone and Waves SSL Bus Compressor are hokum?

eh? what's that got to do with this dual mono routing weirdness?

[bduffy]

Right. So do you think things like Colortone and Waves SSL Bus Compressor are hokum?

eh? what's that got to do with this dual mono routing weirdness?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm lost here. In case you can't tell, I don't know a lot about analog circuitry, etc.

I got the impression, from what Kingofbeers was describing, that the difference in the dual-mono levels was somehow responsible for the much-loved "glue together" effect of the mix bus compressor. I think I missed someone's point somewhere.

[Kingston]

if Colortone and Waves SSL Bus Compressor treated L/R with different settings there would be customer complaints. or what was the point of dual mono again? if you're running the two plugins mimicking dual mono with same settings, you have accomplished absolutely nothing in comparison to just one unit over a stereo bus. (just do the ol' invert test and get null file in return, end of story)

the most important trick is the dual mono setup on the mix buss to mimic the L and R channels of an analogue consoles mix buss...being uneven in a mircoscopic way seems to create a (sorry for the cliche) more organic dimensional sound...to my ears anyway..like the bigger consoles did way back when...saturating slightly differently with 2 instances of your saturation plug ..one Left...one Right...as oppossed to a single instance slapped across the mixbuss.

bduffy, take it from me, you can safely file this trick under either "negligible", or "simulating broken equipment". The most important factor with this trick is to note that stereo audio generally already contains two channels of discrete information with differing levels. With that in mind the trick is even *more* ineffective. The two channels are already being processed separately, with level differences.

[Lee702]

Just mix it like a record

[wsaidah]

ok bduffy this is a cool link you have Charles Dye,Bob Olhsson and bob katz giving there take on things http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=64506

[bduffy]

if Colortone and Waves SSL Bus Compressor treated L/R with different settings there would be customer complaints. or what was the point of dual mono again? if you're running the two plugins mimicking dual mono with same settings, you have accomplished absolutely nothing in comparison to just one unit over a stereo bus. (just do the ol' invert test and get null file in return, end of story)

the most important trick is the dual mono setup on the mix buss to mimic the L and R channels of an analogue consoles mix buss...being uneven in a mircoscopic way seems to create a (sorry for the cliche) more organic dimensional sound...to my ears anyway..like the bigger consoles did way back when...saturating slightly differently with 2 instances of your saturation plug ..one Left...one Right...as oppossed to a single instance slapped across the mixbuss.

bduffy, take it from me, you can safely file this trick under either "negligible", or "simulating broken equipment". The most important factor with this trick is to note that stereo audio generally already contains two channels of discrete information with differing levels. With that in mind the trick is even *more* ineffective. The two channels are already being processed separately, with level differences.

I'll take it from you, you know your stuff, that's for sure. Besides, I was never prepared to do that send-your-mix-to-a-bus-then-to-two-extra-busses or anything like that. Too complicated for me. If I want analogy-tapeish-voodoo, there's Vintage Warmer or even...Retroband!

Cheers, thanks for sticking with me. I know nothing.

[bduffy]

ok bduffy this is a cool link you have Charles Dye,Bob Olhsson and bob katz giving there take on things http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=64506

Man, that Charles Dye guy is starting to piss me off!

I'll check it out, thanks. I really don't use big consoles, so I don't know shit about this.

[oblagon]

I'll rest my case with a quote of a UK ad campaign: "Stop, think and go!"

but yeah, in all honesty, when you *feel* you are actually getting a better sound, and you *feel* good about something, even better things happen... often unrelated to the original cause.

the mind is a powerful tool.

Kingston, are you saying there's nothing to what kingofbeers was saying about tiny variations in the two sides of a stereo bus that are mimicked or captured by plugins? Is that just not so? I'm just trying to figure out what you're so worked up about. Is it all hooey?

Not completely, but certainly not worth the trouble of double the CPU on any particular plug to get this effect. Falls very near the border of placebo effect, the good warm feeling that your mix is being improved, when in fact one *could* do something of substance instead.

One should note that with properly designed equipment this effect is *extremely* minor, ie, negligible, and I would go as far as saying that anyone saying otherwise is not understanding the concept.

*sigh* just seems like (and is) more placebo foolery along the lines of summing voodoo, and this always ticks me off the wrong way.

Aren't you trying to sell multiband saturation 'foolery' ? IS that worth extra cpu cycles and the trouble of setting up ?

[KingofBeers]

Who said anything about using other processes like compressors or limiters in Dual mono etc?? that would be MAD! and very inaccurate for starters. Hey Kingston I see your plug is out now, will have to try your version of what saturation/distortion is a whirl . Telling people that dual mono doesn't work for you is great ...but theres a few people I have now worked with that like this idea..and IT IS JUST AN IDEA...something happens with 2 plugins than one..all be it small..but it does make a difference..and yes the mind is a wonderful tool..but so are your ears

Cheers.