The Upsampling Your Mix Thread

[Shy]

This thread sure picks up lots of trolls. That's what happens when you guys make outragously ridiculous claims without proving a thing.

[xander]

Well, for what it's worth, I think I will try to replicate what bduffy's doing with some of my samples (especially since I just upgraded my DAW).

I'll post some results here later

[bduffy]

Well, for what it's worth, I think I will try to replicate what bduffy's doing with some of my samples (especially since I just upgraded my DAW).

I'll post some results here later

Yeah, please. I'm not sure I got this one right, and my connection is slow as shit tonight. I think it's like Kylen says, though: more like the "last 5-7%". But we shall see.

[xander]

Well, for what it's worth, I think I will try to replicate what bduffy's doing with some of my samples (especially since I just upgraded my DAW).

I'll post some results here later

Yeah, please. I'm not sure I got this one right, and my connection is slow as shit tonight. I think it's like Kylen says, though: more like the "last 5-7%". But we shall see.

Righto -- should be interesting. One thing for sure, when using complex IRs, the resolutions (especially of the tails) are far smoother audibly -- with less aliasing. I want to explore this a bit further.

Cheers

[Dayl]

Edit. haha.

[Dayl]

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2458112

[bduffy]

Damn, Sascha posted in the OT thread!

Listening now...

[Kingston]

Shy, let me explain why, as far as my knowledge goes, this type of upsampling makes a difference:

(1) Most of the DSP synths and effects we use do not have perfect algorithms, and do not have perfect internal upsampling and downsampling. Thus they will sound different when operating at different sample-rates.

(2) By exporting a project at a higher sample-rate, you will be recording the output of the algorithm at that sample-rate.

(3) Once you downsample back to a reasonable sample-rate (44.1k), the result will be different than if you had simply recorded the results of the DSP at 44.1k.

This is the fundamental concept of oversampling.

Which of the above statements (1, 2, and 3) is false?

spot on. and the better the resampling algorithm is, the better the end result will be.

[bduffy]

Shy, let me explain why, as far as my knowledge goes, this type of upsampling makes a difference:

(1) Most of the DSP synths and effects we use do not have perfect algorithms, and do not have perfect internal upsampling and downsampling. Thus they will sound different when operating at different sample-rates.

(2) By exporting a project at a higher sample-rate, you will be recording the output of the algorithm at that sample-rate.

(3) Once you downsample back to a reasonable sample-rate (44.1k), the result will be different than if you had simply recorded the results of the DSP at 44.1k.

This is the fundamental concept of oversampling.

Which of the above statements (1, 2, and 3) is false?

spot on. and the better the resampling algorithm is, the better the end result will be.

I knew you'd turn up on this one!..So would you say exporting from Cubase at a higher sample rate than the project would result in the plugins exporting at the higher sample rate, or would you have to switch the whole project first?

[Kingston]

So would you say exporting from Cubase at a higher sample rate than the project would result in the plugins exporting at the higher sample rate, or would you have to switch the whole project first?

What!! ?? NO!

do NOT *EVER* change project sample rate in cubase. The resampling algorithm is incredibly CRAP! no, it does not process the plugins at higher rate either, unless you change the said project sample rate. the export sample rate selector is one of the worst resamplers in existence.

you mix the project in cubase at the original rate (say 44.1khz) and bounce/render at that rate also.

everything related to changing sample rates must be handled with proper tools like audiomove or r8brain pro. otherwise the whole process is pretty much a destructive mush factory.

[bduffy]

So would you say exporting from Cubase at a higher sample rate than the project would result in the plugins exporting at the higher sample rate, or would you have to switch the whole project first?

What!! ?? NO!

do NOT *EVER* change project sample rate in cubase. The resampling algorithm is incredibly CRAP!

you mix the project in cubase at the original rate (say 44.1khz) and bounce/render at that rate also.

everything related to changing sample rates must be handled with proper tools like audiomove or r8brain pro. otherwise the whole process is pretty much a destructive mush factory.

UNDERSTOOD!! I remember you saying something to that effect about Cubase. So you take your project-samplerate mix, and let a quality program pristinely upsample the material so you can master it with your mastering plugins, running sexily at 96khz+. Then you render your mastered file and sample it back down with r8brain/audiomove.

But if you move up to 96k in Cubase - without converting the project wavs - you won't be forcing the effects to output at 96k? I believe that's what dusted william was getting at.

[Kingston]

But if you move up to 96k in Cubase - without converting the project wavs - you won't be forcing the effects to output at 96k? I believe that's what dusted william was getting at.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. (I skipped much of the thread due to the troll onslaught so I don't know what dusted william has been saying either)

ONLY the project sample rate has any effect on the plugin processing. when you flip the switch in cubase it will also ask if you want to convert the files to the higher rate. you DO NOT want this destructive thing. that's the whole reason I keep mentioning audiomove all the time. There are hosts that are able to do such a thing with grace, but cubase is not one of them.

You might get away with it in projects where only VSTi's are used.

Also, in the audio export dialog you get a choice to select a sample rate other than the project sample rate. This has absolutely no effect on plugins and anything within the project. It's just a very bad quality resampler. It simply exports the audio at the project sample rate and resamples it in one (very bad sounding) step.

[mustgroove]

do NOT *EVER* change project sample rate in cubase. The resampling algorithm is incredibly CRAP! no, it does not process the plugins at higher rate either, unless you change the said project sample rate. the export sample rate selector is one of the worst resamplers in existence.

Kingston - do you know if Ableton handles resampling in the same way?

You can specify a project sample rate (of sorts) in Preferences, which governs not only the sample rate for recording but also what sample rate the project plays back at and plugins process at... it also allows you to specify sampling rate at mixdown...

So if you render to 88.2 when the sample rate is set to 44.1 in Preferences, do instruments & effects process @ 88.2 or is everything just upsampled at the end?

[Kingston]

I have no idea how Ableton Live handles this. I only know that FL studio and EXT will handle such high sample rate exports gracefully, and Cubase/Nuendo doesn't (and neither does protools).

[mustgroove]

Thanks dude