experimental music lovers unite!

[rp314]

Well, it's always difficult to decide whether there is a need (social, cultural, spiritual, whatever) for experimental art, or whether some folks have an almost genetic predisposition for wanting to do things differently from the other greatly loved artists who are content to perfect the established forms.

In terms of the 20th century, here in the U.S. the tradition was pretty strong: Charles Ives, Henry Cowell, Conlon Nancarrow, Edgar Varese, Harry Partch, John Cage, etc. However, there is also an element of eclecticism which refuses to abandon the pioneering spirit. Folks like Frank Zappa, John Zorn, Sun Ra and others content to span the spectrum of musical styles including those that could be referred to as "experimental". One doesn't listen to that music nearly as much as one ought to, or maybe would like to, but, once it's worked its magic on you the impact is powerful even in occasional, albeit small, doses.

There is no need to expect the average person to know who Nancarrow or Kagel were. And those of us who love their work and are influenced by it maybe do have some genetic or psychological predisposition, even if in this fine nation of ours that may sound like promoting some elitist position. You know, Charles Ives could have just been an insurance man who wrote pretty songs in his spare time. Is there a common motivation behind why he chose not to, and why any of us would be interested in going back to that work when there is so much music being created by mainstream artists in the present? Perhaps Frank Zappa tried to enlighten us when he often stated that there will always be "freaks", and there might never be a completely satisfactory scientific explanation.

To me, the universality of all music, lies in that it is available to anyone who wishes to venture into its world. Those that don't want to enter the universe of unusual sound making can no doubt still live wonderful lives. But some of us can't, or at least don't seem to want to...

[zerocrossing]

Well, it's always difficult to decide whether there is a need (social, cultural, spiritual, whatever) for experimental art, or whether some folks have an almost genetic predisposition for wanting to do things differently from the other greatly loved artists who are content to perfect the established forms.

In the mood to hear a theory? I pulled this one our of my ass for a college paper. Enjoy...

I feel that experimental/avant guard art plays a very specific role in culture. It is literally the mechanism that generates "memes." People who create experimental art are under cultural stress. They find established modes of art/communication to be insufficient. This is similar to the way an organism under environmental stress will tend to have offspring with a higher mutation rate. What culture calls an "experiment" is really just an artist's expression that falls outside the established paradigm. There's really nothing experimental about it from the vantage point of the artist. If they're showing it, it's safe to say that the experiment is over.

Culture then picks and chooses these new "memes" in a Darwinian fashion. Does this express something in a useful way? If not it will die or go dormant. Often years go by before something that was once considered experimental to fall into mainstream art/design. Look at the Dadaists from the early part of last century and you'll find echos of the movement in pop culture magazines like Raygun.

LOOK AT ME! I'm all Marshall Mcluhan and sh*t!

[stanlea]

what types of experimental music do you listen to?
who are some of your favorite experimental bands/composers?

(Some exemples)
20st century composers : Ligeti, Cage, Antheil, Berg, Berio, Ferrari, Boulez, Saariaho, Henry, and many others
Innovative jazzmen : Art Ensemble of Chicago, Anthony Braxton
The Canterbury stuff and Rock in Opposition : Caravan, Hatfield and the North, Henry Cow, Slap Happy, Akzak Maboul, Art Bears, of course Robert Wyatt
Many other things on netlabels, and also the stuff from Wire Magazine (excellent samples CD)


do you make (compose, perform) experimental music?

I try

please share links of experimental music sites you find worthwhile.

http://www.otherminds.org/home.htm
http://www.excentrica.org/ (seems down)
http://coma.org/index.php
http://brahms.ircam.fr/ in french


what do you think of the experimental music 'scene' on kvr?

Some good guys here.

[dirty oscillators]

Rachmiel- i mean no offense and i'm not trying to derail this thread, but i don't understand what you're asking. what is experimental music?

the definition of experimental implies that you continue to forge new paths, so to call something experimental means that everything else like that is experimental which goes against the notion of being different or new.

there are artists over the centuries that i'm sure experimented with their instrument in some ways but now it might be considered classical, blues, or jazz. another example - Jeff Mills is quite experimental in his work, yet he's considered a Techno artist. Techno came out of experimenting, and as a genre it has a certain sound and feel all to its own.

so to me "experimental" describes the work involved but not the type of music.

[foosnark]

the definition of experimental implies that you continue to forge new paths, so to call something experimental means that everything else like that is experimental which goes against the notion of being different or new.

and there are artists over the centuries that i'm sure experimented with their instrument in some ways but now it might be considered classical, blues, or jazz. another example - Jeff Mills is quite experimental in his work, yet he's considered a Techno artist. Techno came out of experimenting, and as a genre it has a certain sound and feel all to its own.

so to me "experimental" describes the work involved but not the type of music.

I see what you're getting at, but the first argument strikes me as circular. It's like saying you can't call something "unique" because you can classify all unique things together in a category.

I agree that much music that involves experimentation also sits firmly in an established genre box. Nothing wrong with that; if you can push jazz or hip-hop or "classical" music forward through experimentation, that's great.

But some music really just seems to lie outside other boundaries -- at least at the time it was made. When you can throw every genre label at a piece of music and none of them stick, and that music was created with unconventional methods/instruments, what else would you call it?

[rachmiel]

Rachmiel- i mean no offense and i'm not trying to derail this thread, but i don't understand what you're asking. what is experimental music?

the definition of experimental implies that you continue to forge new paths, so to call something experimental means that everything else like that is experimental which goes against the notion of being different or new.

there are artists over the centuries that i'm sure experimented with their instrument in some ways but now it might be considered classical, blues, or jazz. another example - Jeff Mills is quite experimental in his work, yet he's considered a Techno artist. Techno came out of experimenting, and as a genre it has a certain sound and feel all to its own.

so to me "experimental" describes the work involved but not the type of music.

dirty, no offense taken. :-) i'm using "experimental" very innocently, without ulterior motive or design, as an umbrella descriptor for "out-there" music. it goes by many names -- downtown, avant garde, outré, progressive, outsider, etc. -- none of which is the thing itself.

[runagate]

Rachmiel- i mean no offense and i'm not trying to derail this thread, but i don't understand what you're asking. what is experimental music?

the definition of experimental implies that you continue to forge new paths, so to call something experimental means that everything else like that is experimental which goes against the notion of being different or new.

there are artists over the centuries that i'm sure experimented with their instrument in some ways but now it might be considered classical, blues, or jazz. another example - Jeff Mills is quite experimental in his work, yet he's considered a Techno artist. Techno came out of experimenting, and as a genre it has a certain sound and feel all to its own.

so to me "experimental" describes the work involved but not the type of music.

dirty, no offense taken. i'm using "experimental" very innocently, without ulterior motive or design, as an umbrella descriptor for "out-there" music. it goes by many names -- downtown, avant garde, outré, progressive, outsider, etc. -- none of which is the thing itself.

I think it's just everyone confuses more than 2 conotations of the word.

When I first got into VSTs the "experimental" music I happened upon was, musically speaking, complete bollox, but experimentally made.

Gene sequences rendered straight to .wav, databending that just sat there as random data...

Seems to have a lot to do with whether one is an audiophile or a studio rat, a neophile or a neophobe, than with the actual audio in question. We're the ones that give it subjective meaning.

[zerocrossing]

The downside to this is that it is mostly "proof of concept", and once the concept is proven, and the experiment recorded, it ceases to be experimental. As soon as the method is duplicated, it becomes, not necessarily rote, but exponentially more predictable. If the outcome can be predicted with a degree of certainty,

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Let's start a Laurie Anderson cover band! We can call ourselves "Gravity's Angels." Oh boy! RIGHT AGAIN!

[dirty oscillators]

dirty, no offense taken. i'm using "experimental" very innocently, without ulterior motive or design, as an umbrella descriptor for "out-there" music. it goes by many names -- downtown, avant garde, outré, progressive, outsider, etc. -- none of which is the thing itself.

right on Rachmiel, i feel ya. yeah i had an inkling you were using it as an umbrella description, but still wanted to get your take on how you view or use the term "experimental" especially since you post such cool recordings in the music cafe.

[debra1rlo]

dirty, no offense taken. i'm using "experimental" very innocently, without ulterior motive or design, as an umbrella descriptor for "out-there" music. it goes by many names -- downtown, avant garde, outré, progressive, outsider, etc. -- none of which is the thing itself.

right on Rachmiel, i feel ya. yeah i had an inkling you were using it as an umbrella description, but still wanted to get your take on how you view or use the term "experimental" especially since you post such cool recordings in the music cafe.

Well, after that other experimental music thread I can see why you asked.

[dirty oscillators]

ha- yes. but i think it had less to do with the subject matter and more to do with the other thread's author and his characteristic style of pretending to be the expert at everything, turning every simple idea or statement into the most wordy/lengthy novel you can imagine, and talking in complete circles.

[rachmiel]

ha- yes. but i think it had less to do with the subject matter and more to do with the other thread's author and his characteristic style of pretending to be the expert at everything, turning every simple idea or statement into the most wordy/lengthy novel you can imagine, and talking in complete circles.

what other thread?

[debra1rlo]

ha- yes. but i think it had less to do with the subject matter and more to do with the other thread's author and his characteristic style of pretending to be the expert at everything, turning every simple idea or statement into the most wordy/lengthy novel you can imagine, and talking in complete circles.

what other thread?

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=247618

[dirty oscillators]

ha- yes. but i think it had less to do with the subject matter and more to do with the other thread's author and his characteristic style of pretending to be the expert at everything, turning every simple idea or statement into the most wordy/lengthy novel you can imagine, and talking in complete circles.

what other thread?

well it started from a thread about originality in music and this certain person made a statement that "originality is over rated" and then kind of slammed "experimental" music. pages later Vurt posted that he is a bit sick of this label others put on him and went on to say what he does is what idiots call experimental... and that's how this other thread (which Deb posted the link to) was started.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... &start=300

[debra1rlo]

ha- yes. but i think it had less to do with the subject matter and more to do with the other thread's author and his characteristic style of pretending to be the expert at everything, turning every simple idea or statement into the most wordy/lengthy novel you can imagine, and talking in complete circles.

what other thread?

well it started from a thread about originality in music and this certain person made a statement that "originality is over rated" and another comment about hearing something that sounded like noise to him and he didn't like it... at some point Vurt's recording were brought up and that's how this other thread (which Deb posted the link to) was started.

You're right dirty, I totally forgot that part. Here's the link to the thread you're referring to that was the genesis of it all.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=246866